Petition to allow R1 to do its own speed-check.

[Kyle Mallory]

Yeah, sadly, don't think its possible to edit the poll to break up the second option into three: "B) leave it like it is... C) only RED media, but a broader range of options"

Or something like that... ah well. C'est la vie.

 

[Steve Wake]

I agree that an officially sanctioned tiering system from RED *might* actually work. DIY I am a little apprehensive with, but a more "basic" kit might be nice.
However, anyone who thinks about skipping on the quality of media is insane - penny wise pound foolish ey?

+1 on both points.

As a future Scarlet Fixed owner who is going to need SSDs for the type of shooting I do (frequent long interviews), but who is not planning to shoot the highest frame rates or even a lot of HDRx, a tiered system under RED's control sounds good.

I recall an old discussion about sensors and related processing chips, where people who know a lot more about silicon fab than I do were saying the best chips would be going to Epic and those that didn't make the cut but were good enough would be going to (at the time) Scarlet S35.

Seems the same could apply here. SSDs that meet the most rigorous standard would be branded as "Unlimited" or something like that. SSD's that tested below a certain cutoff, but were good enough, could be labeled another way. The cutoff could be around Scarlet Fixed 30fps HDRx or Epic 30fps 5K (no HDRx) data rates. Probably a more attractive option to Scarlet owners since Epic owners might want to shoot HDRx most of the time (or at least have that option all of the time). But I think Scarlet owners are going to significantly outnumber Epic owners in the long run.

Just thinking out loud, and hoping to save a few $$.

 

[D Fuller]

I think there is a small point of distinction between skipping on quality, and evaluating alternative and more cost-effective solutions. Just because you pay $30k for a diamond-covered Nokia phone, doesn't make the quality any better. Likewise, just because I want to explore the option of paying $99 for my SSD's doesn't mean the quality will be any less.

It could be... but it could also be just as reliable. We won't know until we try. The point of the post isn't to question RED's quality. It's to allow the camera itself to make that assertion directly, rather than being ignorantly told so. And before anyone thinks that statement is directed at any individual... the CAMERA is the ignorant one here.. because it doesn't question the media, it simply ignores all other media which its been told are "too slow".

We're NOT talking about bling on your SSDs here!!

For me, the reputation of the camera system is paramount. I already fight a constant battle with people who have heard God knows what-all about the Red One from people who spread FUD for various reasons. I'm just not excited about opening up a DIY media option or anything else that will create the opportunity for for the camera not to meet somebody's expectations. It will hurt all of us.

People do stupid things all the time to save money. It's a fact of life. I'm interested in (literally) fool-proof media. And I'm willing to pay for that, so that some fool won't make a client of mine believe that using a Red camera will cause trouble on the shoot.

Please understand, I'm not calling you a fool, and I do understand that it could be possible for people to supply their own media and have it work. But the ways people will invent to screw up if given the chance are legion. Imagine this conversation:

Producer: "It's gonna cost what to rent media? How much do those things cost?"
Rental house: "Well, the 256G SSDs cost $3200.."
Producer: "What!!?!! I can get a 256G SSd on Amazon for $389!!"
Rental House: "Well, you do have the option of using that, but it's likely the camera will limit you to lower framerates."
---later that week at the shoot----
Director: "Let's do another take, this time at 60fps."
DIT: "We can't. The camera won't go that high."
Director: "What? I thought the camera could shoot 120??"
DIT: "It will, but the media won't. They didn't get the right SSDs."
Director: "WTF?? Right media? Fuckin' Red cameras..."

 

[Jeremy Neish]

Kyle, I agree with you. This has bothered me too. (Maybe it's just us Utahan's being cheapskates) I've been with RED long enough to remember them talking about supporting media open standards. That's a promise that I don't think was fulfilled 100%.

Now, I would never rent our camera with non-RED media, but I sure as heck would be willing to try it on personal projects, and I'm frustrated we can't. Ironically, I believe in the earliest firmware builds we could, but that was taken away.

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand why RED is taking a cautious approach. They don't need people complaining about dropped frames due to inferior media, but I would never dream of bugging or blaming RED for something like this. Especially if the camera made it VERY clear when I formatted it, that this is unapproved media and may not perform as expected.

But maybe it's the libertarian in me wants to be able to do what I want with the things that I buy. It's for this same reason that I always jailbreak my iPhones (then rarely take advantage of it), it's the principle of the matter.

 

[Kyle Mallory]

---later that week at the shoot----
Director: "Let's do another take, this time at 60fps."
DIT: "We can't. The camera won't go that high."
Director: "What? I thought the camera could shoot 120??"
DIT: "It will, but the media won't. They didn't get the right SSDs."
Director: "WTF?? Right media? Fuckin' Red cameras..."

Hey, David. in the spirit of using bold type:

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT RESTRICTING THE CAMERA. Rather I'm suggesting that the CAMERA should test the media, rather than blindly assume that all other media is inferior. If it works, great. If it doesn't then don't.

I find it interesting that this topic always comes back to "but I don't want to attach media that can't keep up...". I agree with this 100%... but, I also want to be able to attach media that I KNOW CAN keep up, even if its not RED's media.

To rewrite your hypothetical conversation: "Imagine a world..."


Producer: "I don't want to rent media for $100 a day, and pay for additional media to copy onto, when I can buy them and keep them for archival"
Rental house: "Well, the 256G SSDs cost $3200.."
Producer: "What!!?!! I can get a 256G SSd on Amazon for $389!!"
Rental House: "Well, you do have the option of using that, there is no guarantee that the will perform fast enough for the camera."
Producer: "Is there a way to find out?"
Rental House: "If you want to buy one, and bring it in, we can try it. Maybe it will..."
Rental House: "Or.. we sell 128G SSD for $200 that have been tested to work in house. They aren't guaranteed by RED, and you may need to check with your production insurance to make sure they'll cover your production if you have problems".
Producer: "I'll buy the SSD on Amazon, and bring it in next week... otherwise, we'll rent."

---later that week at the camera prep----
Producer: "Here is that SSD I wanted to try..."
Rental House: "Cool, let's plug it in and see what happens."
... Camera boots, and performs a speed test. The media averages 65MB/s, but has dips that drop as low as 30MB/s. The camera rejects the media.

Rental House: "Unfortunately, the camera rejected the media. Again, we have smaller 128G for $200, or you can rent the RED SSD's for $100/day and have to buy backups, and have someone manage those backups."
Producer: "Hmmm... Tough call... I think I'll buy the SSDs."
Rental House: "Did you check on your insurance, to make sure they would cover faulty media if you use non-manufacturer approved media?"
Producer: "No,.. do you think I need to worry about it?"
Rental House: "Do you want to risk you're production on it?"
Producer: "Cost effectively, its about the same... We already have a data manager budgeted. I guess not. I'll rent the media."

 

[Rob Ruffo]

"I am a bit tired of hearing no-budget guys whining"
"I am not putting down anybody with less money"

I'm not a no-budget guy, but I can't help point out the inconsistencies with these two comments. Rob, your sentiment may be shared, but your delivery is unhelpful to your own cause. You can't lump everyone with no budget together and label them whiners without putting them down. Also, I don't think Kyle is demanding Red do anything. He has a reasonable request that may be beneficial to many redusers and this seems to be the appropriate place to discuss that.

I would prefer RED keep its media system the way it is for all the same reasons you and everyone else has posted, but why all the venting and talk about government welfare systems? Let's give the guy a break. He's only trying to offer solutions for his customers.

There is no inconsistency: I have nothing against low-budget people, only those specific ones who whine all the time. (There are others, who, on the contrary, are ambitious and non-whiny - I like those a lot - they are the next generation - and they are also far more likely to move up in budgets later on. A whiny attitude will get you nowhere.)

 

[Johnny Friday]

I'd love to see RED open the SSD reader to any media we wish to purchase. For all of the posts i've read here....who cares what anyone buys. We all know what we're going to do or buy. And honestly, if you buy an SSD reader and know RED's is RED tested and approved....99% if not 100% of us will choose to buy RED approved media anyway....and of course nobody shooting a hi-budget feature i'd think even consider it. Only a few freelancers doing either work on their own or having tested their media would work professionally with it....my guess anyway. That's how i work and i'd buy 3 or 4 RED approved drives and 3 or 4 of my own choice.....shoot at my own risk on my own dime on my own time for my own stock nature footage. or others doing their own indie work....probably have enough in the budget for 4 or 5 RED SSD's for the big stunt that is a one time setup....then the non red media for b & c cameras. out in the field with time to make a 2nd or 3rd take.

....We're all capable of making our own decisions without bastardizing the other guy who brings a pretty good point. Kind of what RED is all about no---non-conformity; going against the populous grain and standard way of doing things? Can you really disagree?

And if you buy some crappy $59 ssd drive without doing any research, well, you just wasted $75k on a camera.

 

[Julian Gerretsen]

There is no inconsistency: I have nothing against low-budget people, only those specific ones who whine all the time. (There are others, who, on the contrary, are ambitious and non-whiny - I like those a lot - they are the next generation - and they are also far more likely to move up in budgets later on. A whiny attitude will get you nowhere.)

I totally agree. I'm very low budget currently, eking out my equipment budget for absolute essentials. I'd love more , I absolutely wish I could load up my own Sandisks or Fuji cards and try them out, all risk to me.

But I totally respect RED's stance on this. Much as I may not like it personally, if I was them, I wouldn't even consider opening up this can of worms.

The media may be pricey, relative to non-proprietary stuff, but to me the trees don't stand in the way of the view of the forest, which is this:

We get to shoot 35mm film quality for the equivalent of peanuts. Peanuts. And if you don't believe that, check out what it would cost to just rent an inferior Genesis for a week.

Let us never lose sight of that fact and what Jim and the team have opened up for us. So from my view, if they get to dictate some hardware specs whilst blazing a trail for us in the process, then I'm prepared to play by their rules.

 

[paulherrin]

If you'll remember... the entire reason RED got into making media was because the terrible quality of even the highest end media for sustaining high datarates. That's still a big part of their decision. Hopefully, we'll see media improve. Of course, there are some forms of media that could definitely work i.e. hard discs.

Secondly, their reputation is still on the line in some people's minds. Once that changes, I think they'll be much less worried about giving people some freedom to make mistakes. You have to understand that your own style of shooting is not the only one. And when there's a commercial shoot where someone heard something from someone else and they end up using sub-par media... you've got problems, and RED's reputation has problems. Whatever you say hypothetically, it's not always that simple when you get on set. Half the people may not know the first thing about a RED camera, much less the particulars of the media. They have a valid point, and we don't need to try to force or guilt them into letting us do whatever we want. If you want to jailbreak your camera and write your own firmware, well go ahead, but own the risks you take, and don't expect any sympathy.

I'm all for some kind of speed testing in or out of camera, if possible - but there's a bigger picture still involved.

 

[Jannard]

Can of worms doesn't begin to describe what you are suggesting.

We could certainly open testing of your own media... but the result would be having to charge for all the calls to the Bomb Squad asking why their media worked under certain conditions and not others. Then comes the mandatory 20 minute discussion on how our customer didn't properly test his media and why RED should just figure out how to make all this work for their customers. We know this is the case because many customers did this even when we posted about media that had the specs and yet dropped frames on a regular basis.

Let's see... customers having problems and then getting charged for a support call. I can just see this on the boards now.

Quick testing is not a viable option. Media needs to be tested for months. That's what we do with each option.

Consistency of firmware revisions will effect performance. We do custom firmware development for the media to work properly with our cameras… and this can't be done on the fly.

One more thing... we have ordered batches of media in the past and some pass and some don't. So one of you posts that "X" media works and everyone goes out and buys a ton of it. Some work and some don't. Are you going to get the call from a pissed off customer or are we? Worse… some of these make it to a large budget shoot. Corrupt or dropped frame happen. The production looks to us, always assuming it is our fault. Let me think…

Additionally, standard SSD connectors will not hold up over time. We broke several in our early testing. Before we broke them, they wore down and had data transfer errors. We added a better connector so you won't get failures in the filed. I assume you also want us to supply the connectors to you? Then answer calls why someone couldn't figure out how to install it properly?

This list is long why we do it like we do. Our support team is over worked as it is and we have seen this picture before.

Last note… what profit we do make (after a ton of development and testing costs and haggling with suppliers) goes to the coffee fund here at RED so we can stay up until 4am and stay connected directly with our customers. I don't know about you, but that coffee matters to me.

Jim

 

[paulherrin]

thanks for the closure jim. we know you guys go above and beyond! merry christmas!

 

[Johnny Friday]

Ok....i'm sending a bag of Mexico's finest to you....a few kilos at minimum. Dont' want you guys falling asleep at the phone! Sending on my next trip north amigo...count on it!

 

[Johnny Friday]

i mean Mexico's finest coffee!

 

[Jannard]

It wasn't too long ago that some thought it was a good idea to hack R3Ds. Can you imagine now how good an idea that was? This is roughly the same... open up the wrong thing so that a ton of bad stuff can happen that we would be held accountable for. We are open... but not masochists.

Now... how about a re-vote?

Jim