Petition to allow R1 to do its own speed-check.

[Rob Ruffo]

HuGE problem here: sleazy rental companies who will say "We include two 128Gig SSD drives" without telling you which drives - then the renter thinks Red is crap.

If I were Red I would do EXACTLY what they are doing.

They are also protecting the investment of those who buy their media. What rental/resale could I hope for if prices drop every 15 minutes? 16Gig cards still rent today for what they rented 1 year ago, which makes me rightly conclude that Red is a solid place to put my money.

I am a bit tired of hearing no-budget guys whining (Scarlet guys are the worst in this area). I have nothing against those working smaller budgets, but just because you are broke does not mean that Red owes you something. Red, Sony and Panasonic are not government welfare systems. (Even though I often feel Jim and Graeme have given me a film grant because of how awesome/inexpensive my Red gear is.)

 

[Kyle Mallory]

Are there really rental companies that are that sleazy?

Rob, I'd buy your argument about protecting my investment, but 90% of my camera's work is on other people projects, not my own. So I'm well aware of the "investment" and making it back, and protecting the value of it. There are some aspects of the camera system that need to be protected. I just don't think media is one of them.

Again, just to restate the obvious.. I don't believe opening up would crush RED's media revenue, unless they really have something to be afraid of (like $200 media working as well or better than $2500 media). But I don't think that is the case. I do believe there is room for options, educated choices, and responsible professionals.

 

[jimhare]

Agreed. Red needs to do it right. Let's not try to compromise it with "should work" and "good enough." Let's leave that for the 5D shooters.

Red isn't for everybody.

Some have been lured because of its amazingly low price, but this doesn't mean everything will be ultra cheap.

Factor the SSDs into the price. If it means you have to pay $45k for a full blown Epic, that's massively cheap!

I wouldn't want to pay that much and then potentially cripple it.

 

[ericyoung]

...I am a bit tired of hearing no-budget guys whining (Scarlet guys are the worst in this area). I have nothing against those working smaller budgets, but just because you are broke does not mean that Red owes you something...(Even though I often feel Jim and Graeme have given me a film grant because of how awesome/inexpensive my Red gear is.)

...Factor the SSDs into the price. If it means you have to pay $45k for a full blown Epic, that's massively cheap!

I wouldn't want to pay that much and then potentially cripple it.

All very well for people with wads of cash or long established businesses. Some posters here seem to suggest that it's black and white - either you can afford not to blink at the cost of Red SSDs, or you're an amateur whiner.

I am neither - I fall between those unhelpful caricatures.

What I was suggesting, about Red branded media in different speeds, in no way "cripples" the Epic, merely offers sensible options for serious Red owner/users on limited budgets in these difficult times. And Red keeps control of media. What's not to like?

 

[Rob Ruffo]

All very well for people with wads of cash or long established businesses. Some posters here seem to suggest that it's black and white - either you can afford not to blink at the cost of Red SSDs, or you're an amateur whiner.

I am neither - I fall between those unhelpful caricatures.

What I was suggesting, about Red branded media in different speeds, in no way "cripples" the Epic, merely offers sensible options for serious Red owner/users on limited budgets in these difficult times. And Red keeps control of media. What's not to like?

I am not putting down anybody with less money - I am just saying that camera companies owe you, me, nothing. We can either agree to pay what they ask for, or not and use another product or rent.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Are there really rental companies that are that sleazy?

Rob, I'd buy your argument about protecting my investment, but 90% of my camera's work is on other people projects, not my own. So I'm well aware of the "investment" and making it back, and protecting the value of it. There are some aspects of the camera system that need to be protected. I just don't think media is one of them.

Again, just to restate the obvious.. I don't believe opening up would crush RED's media revenue, unless they really have something to be afraid of (like $200 media working as well or better than $2500 media). But I don't think that is the case. I do believe there is room for options, educated choices, and responsible professionals.

It's not just sleazy, it's in some cases uninformed. A company here in Montreal used to rent their Red with non-Red flash cards. A not too tech-savvy DP told me he was "certain" Red only shot in 2K for now, and that 4K was disabled until some future filmware update, as he only rented from that company. You can call these people what you want, but fact remains that Rodeny Charters used the feed from an LCD to compare cameras online - so imagine the level of "digital confusion" out there. It would take one day for people to say that Red "tends to drop frames". The 5D is popular mostly because of misinformation and how easily it spreads over the net among noobs and the clueless (although it does have its -very limited - applications (filming in Iraq, for example, or limited budget 16 camera shoots))... At least until Epic is released, when that number will go down even lower).

 

[Clint Lealos]

"I am a bit tired of hearing no-budget guys whining"
"I am not putting down anybody with less money"

I'm not a no-budget guy, but I can't help point out the inconsistencies with these two comments. Rob, your sentiment may be shared, but your delivery is unhelpful to your own cause. You can't lump everyone with no budget together and label them whiners without putting them down. Also, I don't think Kyle is demanding Red do anything. He has a reasonable request that may be beneficial to many redusers and this seems to be the appropriate place to discuss that.

I would prefer RED keep its media system the way it is for all the same reasons you and everyone else has posted, but why all the venting and talk about government welfare systems? Let's give the guy a break. He's only trying to offer solutions for his customers.

 

[Martin Weiss]

I'll just re-float an idea i mentioned a little while ago

Remembering the Arri-Sr2 days, they had two types of magazines, standard and high-speed.

Maybe it could be an idea (and I have no technical insight whatsoever) to offer the following three SSD Options:

SSD-MAXX - Top of the line, RED approved, withstands any datarate that the Camera can produce. 120fps 5k. Great for big budgets, rental houses. Each owner/operator could buy one in 64gig flavour to be able to shoot high fps.

SSD-STANDARD - High quality, RED approved SSD media, up to say 30fps in 5k. Great for lower-budget films, and likely to be enough in 90% of all shooting situations for normal owner/operators. Makes media more affordable in those 90% situations where neither high-speed nor lowest compression is necessary.

SSD-DIY - Enclosure without a RED logo and a different color. When inserted, a big warning is displayed on all screens that media is not RED approved. In the enclosure one can insert off-the-shelf SSD media. Use at own risk. Severely limited data rates. Great for work in remote locations when extra media is needed on short notice, or to bridge possible future short supplies of RED media.

 

[ericyoung]

Ah it was you Martin! I've been mentioning your idea above.

I'm with you on the Maxx and Standard. Thought there was room for a Medium tier which could do 5K 60fps.

I like the DIY, but have my doubts about RED going for it in the short term, until almost every consumer drive is easily fast enough on sustained read/write.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

As a guy who obsesses more than he probably should about "the law of unintended consequences," all I can see in this discussion is the potential for a lot of things to go wrong if RED tries to create some sort of "tiered quality system." First there is the amount of time, energy and personnel in designing the program; what are the logistic of testing and categorizing and posting and updating the program? Then, it has to monitored for potential "problems" - what if someone has a failed capture on an approved media? Was it the media not living up to it's own level of quality or was it a bad unit or a bad batch? Does the whole category have to be re-classified? How is this tested and determined? Who is the "victim" to turn to (blame)? Does he go back to the manufacturer? Or, does RED re-evaluate the whole line of media for possible re-categorization? If so, what is the investigation and re-testing process? Finally, is it all worth it to RED to develop this "parallel" quality assurance program just to "sell" other people's media? Would it really be worth it or would the cost of that program just, in the end, have to be paid for somewhere, making RED's own media just that much more expensive? Maybe such a program could work but it is beyond me to figure out exactly how. :huh:

EDIT: BTW - this all assume that RED cares A LOT about maintaining a high quality reputation related to consistent, predictable, complete data capture, as others have pointed out. And it would appear self-evident that they DO care!

 

[ericyoung]

Didn't seem impossible to do a two tier 8GB/16GB RED approved CF card scheme.

Seeing as Red has to speed check all the media anyway for Quality Control, it should be possible to separate out which media has the required speed for "Maxx" and which for "Standard" with a healthy safety margin.

I see your point though with more tiers. I'd be happy with a two tier option. :smile:

 

[D Fuller]

Rob, I'd buy your argument about protecting my investment, but 90% of my camera's work is on other people projects, not my own. So I'm well aware of the "investment" and making it back, and protecting the value of it. There are some aspects of the camera system that need to be protected. I just don't think media is one of them.

There is one aspect of the camera that needs to be protected above all others. Its Reputation. Media is a key element -- maybe the key factor in that. If Red's reputation for reliability takes a hit, your camera will loose value for both rental and resale. There are other choices, and if there is any cloud on Red's reputation for reliability, producers will choose other options.
Horror stories don't ever get all the details right. It's, "They spent $40k to blow up the house, and the f$&@:/! Red camera dropped a bunch of frames. Ruined the shot." not "They spent $40k to blow up the house, and the Red camera dropped a bunch of frames because the f$&@:/! production manager ordered SSDs that weren't as good as they needed to be. Ruined the shot."
This is not an area where the company can relax it's standards.

Again, just to restate the obvious. I don't believe opening up would crush RED's media revenue, unless they really have something to be afraid of (like $200 media working as well or better than $2500 media). But I don't think that is the case. I do believe there is room for options, educated choices, and responsible professionals.

Red does have something to be afraid of, but it's got nothing to do with media sales. Red has to be on guard against FUD. It's the one thing that can kill the program.

 

[D Fuller]

I'll just re-float an idea i mentioned a little while ago

If Red could lock the media out for certain functions, this could work. But only with Red-branded or sanctioned media. No DIY option please.

 

[ericyoung]

If only two tiers, I'd like a 5K 60fps at a little over half the price of the all singing all dancing, OR a 5K 30fps at a bit more than quarter of the price..

If three tiers, then all three of the above options for perfect user mix and match as required.

Also makes sense for Red, so that media rejected for the top tier(s) doesn't just get thrown away, when it could make money and make a lot of Redusers much happier!

All Red branded, fully tested and approved of course.

No harm in asking!!

 

[Kyle Mallory]

I find the results of this topic curious... most comments suggest a preference for leaving things as they are. Yet a 2 of 3 survey responses suggest the opposite.

I'd sure like to hear from more of those that are in favor of it. At the moment, it seems I'm mostly alone in this... ;-)

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I find the results of this topic curious... most comments suggest a preference for leaving things as they are. Yet a 2 of 3 survey responses suggest the opposite.

I'd sure like to hear from more of those that are in favor of it. At the moment, it seems I'm mostly alone in this... ;-)

The seemingly conflicting results may have a little to do with the way you phrased your answer choices. Requiring people to express the sentiment that "I like that my camera only works with RED media." may not be something they want to state, even if they are of the mind that they agree with RED's policy on proprietary media. This is a mistake a lot of so-called "polls" make here on REDuser. Polling is a complicated art and very often, the answer choice that a whole lot of people would choose, based on the question as stated, is "None of the above." As an example, I didn't answer at all because neither choice reflects my opinion, even though I have one. Bottom line, I am not sure your poll has all that much scientific validity upon which a clear decision could be made. :huh:

 

[Kyle Mallory]

Bottom line, I am not sure your poll has all that much scientific validity upon which a clear decision could be made. :huh:

Ouch! While the poll wasn't intended to be overly scientific... Sadly, sometimes the truth just hurts! :cheers2:

 

[Erik Franzén]

AFAIK RED has never said they are against any 3rd party that wants to get in on the game and get their media sanctioned. It's just that it would cost a 3rd party just as much as it costs RED.
Hence, no one wants to play. I agree that an officially sanctioned tiering system from RED *might* actually work. DIY I am a little apprehensive with, but a more "basic" kit might be nice.
However, anyone who thinks about skipping on the quality of media is insane - penny wise pound foolish ey?

 

[Kyle Mallory]

I think there is a small point of distinction between skipping on quality, and evaluating alternative and more cost-effective solutions. Just because you pay $30k for a diamond-covered Nokia phone, doesn't make the quality any better. Likewise, just because I want to explore the option of paying $99 for my SSD's doesn't mean the quality will be any less.

It could be... but it could also be just as reliable. We won't know until we try. The point of the post isn't to question RED's quality. It's to allow the camera itself to make that assertion directly, rather than being ignorantly told so. And before anyone thinks that statement is directed at any individual... the CAMERA is the ignorant one here.. because it doesn't question the media, it simply ignores all other media which its been told are "too slow".

 

[ericyoung]

...As an example, I didn't answer at all because neither choice reflects my opinion, even though I have one. Bottom line, I am not sure your poll has all that much scientific validity upon which a clear decision could be made. :huh:

Exactly my thoughts. Your poll allows only two opinions, none of which covers mine!