Petition to allow R1 to do its own speed-check.

[Kyle Mallory]

I would like to make a formal petition to RED, in an upcoming firmware, to allow the camera to perform its own speed-test, for non-speed verified media.

While I appreciate RED's efforts to ensure that they sell the fastest media on the planet, the reality is the R1 no longer needs the fastest media. A low-end SSD is more than sufficient to sustain the WRITE data rates necessary for the R1, even at its highest image quality settings.

I think it would be great if, when non-RED approved media is connected, the screen which states the media is non-speed verified, would give an option to perform a speed test, at which point the camera could format if necessary, and attempt to write 10-30 seconds of the data to the media, report the speed, and if sufficient, allow the full functionality of the camera, but still note that the media is NON-APPROVED. It would be ideal, though not necessary, if the camera would remember the S/N for that specific device, and not require the speed test again, the next time it was attached.

As, the CF module is User Replaceable, and is a standard SATA II connection, I would very much like to see a cost-effective solution to alternative media, particularly with the discontinuation of the RED drives, and the lack of new CF media. I think this would allow a small niche market for a third-party manufacturer to develop reasonably priced SIDE or RED DRIVE modules that would accept off-the-shelf SATA media (SSD or otherwise) via the appriopriate SATA (SIDE) or RED-DRIVE connections (in the case of the RED DRIVE media, the module would convert to an eSATAp connector).

While I understand the desire to maintain a level of quality control on the media that the camera uses, and thus RED liability and support costs, the reality is, for a fair number of RED ONE owners, 250MB/s sustained write media is purely overkill, and 50MB/s sustained is easily realistic in consumer grade SSD media.

Additionally, while I recognize some Insurance companies requirements to shoot on manufacturer approved media, the reality is, this is not a requirement for a large number of productions with use the RED ONE.

I would, of course, welcome other thoughts on this topic, and hope to hear from RED/Jim/Jarred in either course of action.


Yours truly,

 

[George Butterfield]

I think over time the cost of RED approved media will come down, if that's any consolation.

 

[Kyle Mallory]

Thanks George,

If the last three years has been any indication, i don't find much consolation there. RED 8GB media dropped in price once, and RED Drive media increased in capacity from 320GB to 640GB with no change in price (so it kind of changed price). Everyone thought the RED-RAMS and 16GB cards would drop in price. They never did.

But the issue isn't really the cost of the media (it is, but indirectly). The issue is that RED's latest SSD media is grossly overkill for its purpose, as it relates to the RED ONE. The EPIC, sure, it needs it. But the R1 doesn't. I shouldn't need to pay $1800 for an SSD drive that a $250 SSD can perform identically too (at least as far as the camera is concerned).

90% of my customers are low-budget independent filmmakers (I'm my own customer as well), who are looking to save a few bucks anywhere they can. It benefits my business to offer an options. I see this as one more option I can offer to my customers. I can still offer RED-approved media to those that want it.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

s it relates to the RED ONE. The EPIC, sure, it needs it. But the R1 doesn't. I shouldn't need to pay $1800 for an SSD drive that a $250 SSD can perform identically too (at least as far as the camera is concerned).

The problem here is that those $250 SSD's don't meet the needed specs. Yes, the makers says, 100 mb a second write. But as Jim and Jarred have posted multiple times, the makers tend to fudge the performance. Yes, they reach 100 mb a second or whatever, but the RED need a steady 25-40 MB's a second for the entire media. You have one second where the media drops below that requirement and you have dropped frames, or worse, corrupt media.

Yes, $1800 sucks, but as Jim has said recently, they are a professional camera company and us professionals need reliable media. I don't want to tell a producer that he lost the last shot because I bought unapproved media.

Matthew

 

[Kyle Mallory]

Hey Matthew,

In fact, those $250 SSD's actually EXCEED the specs needed by the R1. They may not meet the specs of the EPIC, but I'm not talking about the EPIC.

I have, in my hand, a $99 64GB SLC SSD that I've tested extensively over the last week and a half. It sustains well over 45MB/s WRITE speeds, for as long as I've bothered to test it, which is longer than most, if not all takes that I've ever shot on my R1.

To my point, however; I'm not telling anyone they HAVE to use this media. Rather, I want to be able to tell a production that they have an option. It may have risks associated with it, and for some, those risks may outweigh the cost-savings. But for some people, it won't, and they will happily go with the alternate option.

A lot of people may not remember, but back in the very early days of RED, a champion platform that was stated regularly was "off the shelf media". It's why the camera had CF cards in the first place, because we were supposed to be able to use any media that met the specs, and not be tied to proprietary, over-priced media with, proprietary connectors, that had to have proprietary readers to access. RED half met their own challenge by utilizing standards such as Compact Flash, and SATA for underlying technologies. I just want to see them fully meet that challenge.

2 years ago, it was a very valid point that few, if any CF cards would make the grade, or that any reasonably priced SATA device could keep up. To the point in fact, that RED ultimately had to make their own media. But for a legacy product (being the R1), in an evolving world of ever faster media, there are currently LOTS of off-the-shelf solutions that are both professional, and which exceed the specs for the camera.

Finally, just to be clear. I'm not asking RED to allow the use of any media, blindly. I am asking that the validation of that media be done by the camera, and that it actually be based on the performance of that media, and not some internal database in the firmware of "speed-verified media", because it's not... its "RED-approved media".

 

[Sean McAllister]

Kyle,

I agree with you 100%. Sadly, I don't think it will happen with the SSD at least. It looks like Red is making some of their money back through the media like most camera companies. I do think they should at least open the CF reader to other companies. Red is moving to SSD anyways so I don't see that it would cut into their profits.

 

[Michael McVicar]

With CF becoming the standard Scarlet media option and the increase of performance of this media, this becomes a valid argument. The data rate would be lower at 3K. Technology always advances.

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Red (and us who own and rent it) can't afford a single unecessary corrupted frame - ever! It undermines the R1 as a professional tool. There has been enough problems with the different R1 media already. (not a lot but more than 0% which is the desired amount). If accepting third party CF cards will in any way increase failure rate - even at 0.01% - I am against it. If the new Ssd brings the failure rate down to 0% - I (and hundreds othes) will sell our old media at a very reasonable price - and go strictly Ssd.

Red can not afford unessesary media failures.

 

[Michael McVicar]

SSd is of course the preferable option. The question is is if other professional media is reliable at the data rates required. It is valid to ask that and you make your choices. The previous history has not been good. Things change.

 

[paulherrin]

RED seems to have some legitimate, non-propaganda/monopolistic intentions for limiting CF cards. If everyone doesn't know by now, most of the non-RED CF cards don't get anywhere near the read/write they advertise, and certainly not sustained for any usable period of time, anyways.

And there would have to be a lot more to testing a card than putting it in the RED for 30 seconds. Most of the cheap cards you think are going to work, well... they're not going to work, sorry, but they're cheap. I don't think there's any price gouging going on with the RED media - it's the best, and it really doesn't fail. I'm just as cheap as the next guy, and I'd love to have cheaper alternatives, but that's the way it is boys.

Oh and good point, be prepared very soon to get some extremely reasonably cheap CF cards secondhand, lot of people have lots of CF cards, and lots of people are soon going to be switching almost exclusively to the SSD's - I'd recommend you do the same. However, if you're cheap like me and want a lot of storage ability at a really low rate, buy up some of these cards, and you'll still be doing pretty good at the end of the day.

EDIT: All that applies to common SSDs as well, or any electronic media - a good bit of the data rates/etc. is just bogus advertising info and it's not going to tell you squat about whether it is actually going to work with the camera. In at least 99/100 cases, the answer is simply going to be no. They make these things super cheap, and every once in awhile there's a gem, provided the thing is actually designed well enough in the first place to be useful. I'm sure they're great for other applications though, just not shooting RED footage.

 

[Kyle Mallory]

Let me try this from a slightly different perspective...

The camera is fully capable of being plugged into a 24-drive, rack-mounted, God-aweful fast, RAID-redundant-in-every-way-possible SATA refrigerator assembly. Except that the camera has been told not to work with it... no matter how fast, or reliable that assembly actually might be.

It could be 800MB/s sustained writes, over quadruplicate drives for redundancy, and the camera STILL won't work with it.

I think this is a disservice to me as a customer to RED, and to my customers who are looking for flexibility in the solutions I provide to them. As a professional, my job is to inform my clients accurate, and guide them through the decision they ultimately make.

 

[Oliver Skibbe]

Red (and us who own and rent it) can't afford a single unecessary corrupted frame - ever!

I have to agree that camera media should be 100% reliable.
It still would be nice to have some lower cost alternatives, like a CF card limited to 3K/24fps frame rates or cheap SSDs that can be used in 4k<60fps only.

 

[paulherrin]

Let me try this from a slightly different perspective...

okay, i can share most of those sentiments. it would be nice to do a little bit of "hacking", if necessary. with the complete understanding and responsibility for the possible risks. or even better, a way to comprehensively test a device and embed an approval for the camera to recognize.

this is a tough one though, because, as they have explained, at the end of the day potential clients don't remember that the custom array of hard-drives didn't get the job done, they will remember that they were working with the RED and the job didn't get done. they had a lot of issues early on with media failure, and clients that they may have lost because of this, so it's a soft spot, and the reason they have taken media and its reliability so dang seriously ever since... which is good, because it's the best. i'd get one specifically for my stills camera if it could actually put anything out at those rates...

 

[Michael McVicar]

A gaurantee is tough to beat, but I do like stirring the pot every once in a while.

 

[Kyle Mallory]

this is a tough one though, because, as they have explained, at the end of the day potential clients don't remember that the custom array of hard-drives didn't get the job done, they will remember that they were working with the RED and the job didn't get done. they had a lot of issues early on with media failure, and clients that they may have lost because of this, so it's a soft spot, and the reason they have taken media and its reliability so dang seriously ever since... which is good, because it's the best. i'd get one specifically for my stills camera if it could actually put anything out at those rates...

Paul,

Thanks for you thoughtful input. These really are valid points, except that the R1 already allows the use of "non-speed verified" media, but just disables the camera significantly. You can put in your crappy CF card and shoot 2k 24FPS just fine. We haven't heard people bitching about storage problems from that? Of course, I don't know of anyone who actually shoots 2k 24FPS regularly (unless they own an Alexa! :blushing: -- sorry, couldn't resist.). But you can, and there isn't a ton of issues with it. I think that is the case because of the notices that are presented, and people that don't want to risk it, don't.

It's right there, in the operators and producers faces... "HEY! ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO DO THIS? IT MAY BE A BAD THING." Probably more often than not, they unplug their shitty CF cards, and plug back in the real thing. But, there are a few, myself included, who have said, "Hey, what the hell, I'll give it a try", and it works for somethings, and not for others, and I learn and I make educated decisions based on that.

I think my proposition is a fair compromise, by making the camera perform a high-bandwidth test of the media to determine whether it can actually sustain itself over an extended period. After running the test, the camera limits its abilities to match the bandwidth of the attached device. If a device performance tapers off, or dips to unacceptable limits during that test.. then its no good. But, if it holds it own, consistently throughout, then let me us it.

As food for thought, continuing my earlier points about the mega-RAID fridge. While it seems a bit excessive or counter-productive that I, even hypothetically, suggest going back to a tethered arrangement, there are compact and portable solutions that could give a production multiple levels of RAID 1 backups, on the fly, that connect via a single eSATA connection. These could be populated with SSD drives to maintain performance, and the whole act of data wrangling on-set becomes a non-issue beyond actually verifying the media.

There are potential solutions like this to real, everyday problems like these, that could be explored and realized, demonstrating the ultimately flexibility of the RED ONE. RED just needs to let us try.

 

[Julio Quintana]

All it takes is a few guys ruining productions with their hacked media and the RED reputation takes a major hit. Producers are not computer techs. Neither are most directors. They have a million other things to think about. So as their going through their Rolodex looking for a camera for their next commercial, someone will tell them:

Someone: Don't forget to ask if they have certified RED media.
Producer: What does that mean?
Someone: I don't know. I just heard it's bad if they don't.
Producer: Is that more expensive?
Someone: I don't know.
Producer: (Thinking)...Doesn't Abel Cine have the Alexa?

 

[paulherrin]

yeah, like i said this is a tough thing for both sides. RED is split a little bit, having to take proper care of their reliable reputation, and letting us have control like this.

i do think it's a good idea to pursue some kind of testing like that, whether in or out of camera. the ONLY problem will be way higher dropped frame % with some of those things, especially CF cards i expect... it would take a much more comprehensive test to guard against that, and a lot of media would have to be rejected...

we need to try suggesting something that makes everyone happy. we're looking at it from a personal/tech/$$ perspective, RED has to see it as a public relations/clientele issue. with how big it's getting, and about to be, they may not need to worry so much about that in the years (or months) to come, hopefully.

even with all the things that come up on screen "you will die if you put this in". you know how they get explained away to producers, and a number of people on set have no idea about it in the first place, likely. so RED's concern is certainly not unfounded. most companies wouldn't even consider other options for media, they have their own proprietary formats. i think RED is legitimately exploring options, hopefully we can help them out, but we can't really change the state of the media that's out there.

i can actually see some times where i'd prefer to just work tethered and cut some hassle of unnecessary wrangling of the files, etc. like when you're shooting greenscreen or else in a studio, locked down, and then it would be nice to just shoot, and i wouldn't personally be worried so much about being tethered.

 

[ericyoung]

I think in the short term, the suggestion by someone else in another thread is the best way.

Ie. Addtional RED tested, approved and branded SSD media, that is limited in maximum frame rate, and hence cheaper and more affordable than the current proposed SSD capable of 5K at 120fps at 5:1 compression.

Most of the time, full 5K resolution at up to 30fps (although 60fps would be preferable) at Redcode 42 (although 5:1 would of course be preferable) would be fine and enough?

Maybe even 3 tiers of media:

Lowest only capable of 5K at up to 30fps at 5:1?
Medium only capable of 5K at up to 60fps at 5:1
Highest - fastest media on the planet.

 

[Curran Giddens]

Don't forget the Red SSDs have a different connector. And for a good reason, regular ones wouldn't hold up over years of mating cycles.

Not sure how easy it would be to intall the connector yourself. If they did end up selling the connector separately, they should definitely make them easy to distinguish from Red branded media. I would want to know if a shoot I am on is taking risks with the media. If there is ever a problem with corrupt or dropped frames I will know the first place to look.

 

[Kyle Mallory]

Hey Curran,

Yeah, the industrial connector is nice, but again, this is something can be work handled/worked around. One example, at $100 for 64GB SSDs, this goes back into the realm of buying media as a single-use solution. You mount it, shoot it, archive it. The media becomes you're master and you're not offloading and reusing the same drive 10 times a day for forever.

At the same time, given the option for alternative media options up the options for alternative enclosures and mounting solutions. Like, for example, the compact RAID 1, that could still use the RED LEMOs.