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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

People puzzled over RED Dragon darkness

Tom S

Tom S

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I let a young DP and film student (1st AC) shoot a short on my RED Epic Dragon. When they turned it on, they were puzzled at the darkness of the image on the monitor. They thought there was something wrong and asked me if there was some sort of filter on it.

Is this a common reaction to people working with REDs for the first time? I do have the skin tone OLPF on it.
 
Tom,

Did you check the monitor brightness setting in the menu? Maybe somebody turned it down? Generally I believe the Red monitors can fool people into under exposing as it looks plenty bright on the Red screens but in reality there can sometimes be not enough exposure*. Monitor brightness is also dependant on the ambient light. The same monitor can look very dark at noon on the beach but very bright at 3AM in the morning on a country road. You also need to be across your exposure tools and be certain you actually have a good exposure (using any of the myriad tools that Red offers) before assuming the monitor is dark.

Your call of course but the small advantage that the ST OLPF offers on small student budget productions is outweighed by the 2/3 rd stop exposure penalty. IMHO you would be better off with the STD OLPF.

*Over the years I have been asked several times to reshoot projects where the original DOP severely under exposed Red cameras. In most cases it would seem the DOP was setting exposures off the LCD screen. A very dangerous practice especially when you mix tired eyes and dark environments
 
Tell them to use GIO, never trust monitor.

Consider using standard OLPF.

Also SKNTN OLPF requires meter calibration/compensation.
Quickish way to see, use a scope and hold up different OLPFs.
 
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Use a calibrated monitor on set. And teach them how to read a histogram. Without things like this, all is lost.
 
Cameras like the A7S II have made low light shooting a possibility. Wonder if they are getting accustomed to shooting with little to no light with these cameras and maybe are surprised by the RED which is not going to see in the dark and needs at least to be reasonably lit to get a good image out of it. That's not a slight on RED and more of a sign of the times. And also, don't want to categorize all young people as not wanting to light either as some of them are lighting their films way better than I'll ever be able to but technology has allowed for those no light scenarios to actually be captured and make an image so some will embrace that.

There could also just have been a technical problem that was causing them to see a darker image but I wonder if it's got more to do with what I described.
 
Yup, always use GIO scope to see what the sensor sees, turn on all the colors to make it look like predator view all the time.
To abnormally see in the dark we need a night vision camera :)
 
I've had an issue or two with this, mostly because younger students don't realize that they actually need to light a scene. There are definitely just as many questions back that I can think of, mostly (as others mentioned) if the monitor's brightness was actually up, what the lens actually opens up to, what ISO they were shooting at, etc.

The monitor has gotten me in trouble when I was much more green to the RED ecosystem. My first few projects were just a tad underexposed because I wasn't properly knowledgable about the histogram and goal posts. The screen actually still gets me every now and then. So, I'm actually surprised that they were thinking it was too dark from the monitor. Maybe they had an electronic lens and didn't realize how to control it from the screen?
 
Darkness has been an issue with RED cameras going back to the ONE, because many who used the cameras didn't know how to use it properly or handle the footage. That's why a lot of RED ONE stuff came out looking not so great and it led to many thinking that it was a "look" inherent to the camera. I don't point the finger at anyone when I say that or disparage them with my comment, it's just how things worked out due to lack of experience and knowledge.
 
Tom S said:
I let a young DP and film student (1st AC) shoot a short on my RED Epic Dragon. When they turned it on, they were puzzled at the darkness of the image on the monitor. They thought there was something wrong and asked me if there was some sort of filter on it.

Is this a common reaction to people working with REDs for the first time? I do have the skin tone OLPF on it.
Click to expand...

There are a gazzilion variables here. Were you vewing gamma uncorrected raw Log3G10 ?
 
I had a faulty LCD cable once. Screen got waaay darker and had the touch capability gone. I could notice it because of the touch problem. Otherwise I just thought somebody closed the aperture like 2 - 3 stops :) So maybe a cable can be bad and loose brightness but not touch.
 
Pretty open question considering. What does the Histograph show or the stop lights or the goal post. What lens mount are they using some still lenses iris might not behave the way they expect.. IE Canon mount with off brand lens.
As mentioned Monitor adjustment. Work flow setup..on the camera or out put to the monitor?
Would be good to get a R3d or at the least a pic of the camera screen or monitor.
 
Something Red could consider for future updates is a small warning symbol that would activate if any (predetermined) critical settings were non standard. If you touched the symbol on the touchscreen a list of settings that were non standard would come up with the deviation number. I know it would not be an easy call which settings should be added but certainly FLUT and any of the LOOK settings should be in, possibly extreme ISO settings and even extreme monitor brightness settings? Years ago I cannot even remember the camera but a Sony I think used to show a small red light in the EVF that indicated that you had changed an engineering setting. Very handy. Something like this could avoid a lot of pain.
 
Just a shot in the dark (sorry about the play on words) but sometimes people who are used to Alexa and they monitor in Log C and the image is very flat and low con. That might be an answer....
 
When I was a noob, I didn't realize the arrows on the side of the monitor changed the brightness setting and they were accidentally put all the way down. So I was struggling in broad daylight, as well, until I found out the monitor controls. Monitor hoods(small HD/Hoodman) always help as well as secondary monitor with histograms.. Also, in super bright conditions, I use a really cheap Zacuto Z EVF ViewFinder 3.2 inch monitor, it sucks(all HDMI's suck), but helps in the brightest of bright conditions and I don't worry about it getting beating around in Sketchy conditions.. I'd love to throw down on a DSMC Red EVF, however, I don't have many mounting options for one and at 4k, they are somewhat pricey..
 
I think the main issue with film students is using Canon and Sony cameras for everything. The Canon DSLRs and C100/C300 and Sony ARs are low light cameras, so when they work with a RED camera, they expect the same low light abilities. The footage ended up looking very good as they were able to adjust for light. The only scene they didn't like was an outdoor night scene. Their 2k HMI wasn't enough to light a wide scene at midnight.
 
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