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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Panavision

Joe G. said:
Things are getting interesting. Red hasn't even released Scarlet yet, and the competitors are already in a downward spiral.

They are too expensive, and their quality lead is being quickly erased. Producers are going to be asking, "HOW MUCH?" And then, "WHY?"

Then they're in real trouble.
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Read my last post. They are not going anywhere. They will just have to adapt. Unless of course they want to lay down and die which I doubt. The competitors are actually quite active but no one seems to notice.
 
1st off... RED will never be alone building professional cameras. 2nd... this may be a good thing for Panavision and could help them turn their momentum around.

All we want to do is move the transition from film to digital quickly and respectfully. When we decided to build a camera, it was because we saw an industry that was taking the slow and painful route. If we have motivated others to quicken the pace... then we have done a good job for the industry.

Jim
 
On the flip side, the vDSLRs are starting to eat into the music video and low budget market that was one dominated by RED. So Red has to adapt to that movement much like Panavision, Kodak, etc have to adapt in order to survive.
 
Panavision = Dinosaur

Panavision = Dinosaur

Props to Jim and the Red Team for seeing the film to digital transition from a broader perspective. Looking at the modern technological landscape they saw the opportunity to start with a fresh sheet of paper and create smarter solutions, from sensor to display.

I would wager there isn't a player in this business that hasn't taken a very comprehensive look at what RED is doing.

Cheers - #19
 
To be clear that I do not want and do not like that anybody is going down anytime...

In the case of Panavision I wish them best in the future.

But after reading about a sort of "private troubles" or a kind of "couple wars" connected with the former Panavision investor,

I thought about that is not a bad idea to get together with RED (that obviously needs to get an enlargement sooner or later)

just in case that the thing with Panavision one day get in trouble again.

It's more about to save the competitor than try to topple the competition.

It's more about to do good things for a sake of users.
 
Jannard said:
1st off... RED will never be alone building professional cameras. 2nd... this may be a good thing for Panavision and could help them turn their momentum around.

All we want to do is move the transition from film to digital quickly and respectfully. When we decided to build a camera, it was because we saw an industry that was taking the slow and painful route. If we have motivated others to quicken the pace... then we have done a good job for the industry.

Jim
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AMEN!!

When I first moved from Film to Digital in Photography was a painful, do to luck of resolution and constant examination and comparison to Film.

NOw for Cinema, RED has surely pushes the envelope, as intended, even more then we tend to make believe we know, and that for me is just fantastic, I never shot Film for Motion, but have been in countless Sets during the years, and compared to now, I just crumble when I happen to be back on a Film Shooting set, and always end up inevitably asking, WHY??
 
Lots of talk about producers choosing cameras and formats.... I know there are a lot of producers out there who make these choices - but this is not their choice to make. It is the cinematographer's choice as to which camera system they go with (provided budget). This was a huge topic at the ASC camera asses. series.

All I can say (without upsetting people), love Pananvision, they aren't going anywhere thankfully, I'd love to rent one of their RED's (or give them mine to Panavise).

And - all this whining/bitching about formats and cameras?!?! Seriously?
Why not do the same towards the producers and studios in regards to, I don't know, story?!
 
Andrew Rieger said:
I read an article in a photography magazine that stated that Kodak has significantly decreased funding on new film stock r&d while boosting funding for image sensor development.
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This is why transitions often happen so quickly. It's really expensive to support two parallel industries. Eventually one starts to appear to be future and the shift to it is extremely rapid.

Less and less people are going to process film so it's going to get more and more expensive.

That doesn't however imply that any one digital company will take over. Just that the transition will be far more immediate than some expect.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
This is why transitions often happen so quickly. It's really expensive to support two parallel industries. Eventually one starts to appear to be future and the shift to it is extremely rapid.

Less and less people are going to process film so it's going to get more and more expensive.

That doesn't however imply that any one digital company will take over. Just that the transition will be far more immediate than some expect.
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The reason film still photography is still popular is that is is relatively easy to do everything yourself, develop, enlarge, print, scan and digitally manipulate. Not so with motion film. Thus, the transition will be much faster in the movie industry, especially considering the economic troubles we are in.
 
Brad Webb said:
On the flip side, the vDSLRs are starting to eat into the music video and low budget market that was one dominated by RED. So Red has to adapt to that movement much like Panavision, Kodak, etc have to adapt in order to survive.
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Soon to be fixed by the Scarlet. DSLR's are still mostly used by those transitioning from mini dv, hvx200/xha1/z1u users looking to get shallow dof without an adapter. RED caters to a different market. Besides, most DSLR vid users see their cams as transition products, soon to be replaced by whatever beats it. Red does not need to worry about Canon until they come out with cameras that record on a more robust codec (possibly raw), fix artifacts, line skipping, skew, aliasing/moire, audio and form factor. None of these things will be fixed within the next year or so. By then, red should have gained a foothold with the Scarlet and then Canon will really need to step up its game.
 
Andrew Rieger said:
Soon to be fixed by the Scarlet. DSLR's are still mostly used by those transitioning from mini dv, hvx200/xha1/z1u users looking to get shallow dof without an adapter. RED caters to a different market. Besides, most DSLR vid users see their cams as transition products, soon to be replaced by whatever beats it. Red does not need to worry about Canon until they come out with cameras that record on a more robust codec (possibly raw), fix artifacts, line skipping, skew, aliasing/moire, audio and form factor. None of these things will be fixed within the next year or so. By then, red should have gained a foothold with the Scarlet and then Canon will really need to step up its game.
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I would say that while your comments certainly apply to those shooting longform projects, particularly for theatrical release, I wouldn't necessarily agree that these same issues apply to anywhere near the same degree for music videos, commercials, and web projects - all of which make up a very large part of what Canon cameras are being used for. And with the new model (the 550D) the price is significantly below even the fixed lens Scarlet. So while your points are valid, they're not necessarily universal. It really depends on the intended distribution.
 
M Most said:
I would say that while your comments certainly apply to those shooting longform projects, particularly for theatrical release, I wouldn't necessarily agree that these same issues apply to anywhere near the same degree for music videos, commercials, and web projects - all of which make up a very large part of what Canon cameras are being used for. And with the new model (the 550D) the price is significantly below even the fixed lens Scarlet. So while your points are valid, they're not necessarily universal. It really depends on the intended distribution.
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Very true. I still feel that given the option, many VDSLR users, even those only distributing on the web, would go for the Scarlet over the Canon. I have been on the Canon forums and I have a 7D so I know that many users see their cameras as the best option currently but not in the next couple of months. Considering the hardware requirements of redcode, Canon will still be a popular alternative to the Scarlet.
 
Andrew Rieger said:
. DSLR's are still mostly used by those transitioning from mini dv, hvx200/xha1/z1u users looking to get shallow dof without an adapter. RED caters to a different market. Besides, most DSLR vid users see their cams as transition products, soon to be replaced by whatever beats it. Red does not need to worry about Canon until they come out with cameras that record on a more robust codec (possibly raw), fix artifacts, line skipping, skew, aliasing/moire, audio and form factor. None of these things will be fixed within the next year or so. By then, red should have gained a foothold with the Scarlet and then Canon will really need to step up its game.
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Some people are stepping up from HVX/mini DV into DSLR, but many Red owners are now shooting music videos and commercials on the 7D and 5D. The people with the money are asking to use them. The 5D and 7D are becoming to be the go to cameras for music videos. They're cheaper, smaller, lighter, and easy to do guerrilla style filmmaking with. Producers are asking to use them, even on videos that could afford to use RED. Part of it is probably flavor of the month, and part of it is budget.

Maybe the Scarlet will take over, when it comes out, maybe not. Just because it's better, doesn't mean it will be used. Just look at how VHS won over Betamax. It may be too late by the time Scarlet comes out. There are already thousands of DSLRs out there, when Scarlet finally arrives, how many will be in the wild? How much more expensive is it going to be to shoot commercials and music videos on them compared to DSLRs? What does Canon, Nikon, etc have up their sleeves to compete with Red? If the DSLRs never came out, I would totally agree that Scarlet was going to rule over the mid-range to low budget projects, but now I don't know so much. How many potential customers did Red lose when the 7D came out?

On the positive note, all this competition is very very good news for us consumers. We're able to get fantastic cameras at really low prices.
 
Andrew Rieger said:
Soon to be fixed by the Scarlet. DSLR's are still mostly used by those transitioning from mini dv, hvx200/xha1/z1u users looking to get shallow dof without an adapter. RED caters to a different market. Besides, most DSLR vid users see their cams as transition products, soon to be replaced by whatever beats it. Red does not need to worry about Canon until they come out with cameras that record on a more robust codec (possibly raw), fix artifacts, line skipping, skew, aliasing/moire, audio and form factor. None of these things will be fixed within the next year or so. By then, red should have gained a foothold with the Scarlet and then Canon will really need to step up its game.
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Cant agree the 5d just got a major up grade

23.987 and 29.987 frame rates along with histogram and metered audio. Big update from canon.

Robert Rodriguez was using 2 canon 7d's to shoot a music video and i dont think he is transitioning from dvx

see phillip bloom

Hopefully scarlet will come out and we will have a fix to all those problems but you cant dismiss what canon is doing.
 
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Brad Webb said:
Maybe the Scarlet will take over, when it comes out, maybe not. Just because it's better, doesn't mean it will be used. Just look at how VHS won over Betamax. It may be too late by the time Scarlet comes out. There are already thousands of DSLRs out there, when Scarlet finally arrives, how many will be in the wild?
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First, VHS beat betamax because distributors decided to standardize format and went with what was more popular at the time, sort of how bluray beat HDDVD. It had nothing to do with user preference. In this market, there is plenty of room for multiple options. As a DSLR user, I know than many are frustrated but the pitfalls of the Canon cams and would gladly upgrade. Keep in mind that before DSLR came onto the scene, many filmmakers were using expensive minidv cams with equally expensive adapters so the scarlet prices are in line with what they were used to. Other than lenses, DSLRs are considered to be very cheap. There may not be as many Scarlets compared to DSLRs but there will be many more used professionally.
 
All those film cameras at Panavision, with all their exclusive patents and remarkable engenerring have been sitting there gathering dust for the last three years, and it's only going to get worse. I know people that work there, they have rooms and rooms of cameras that haven't been active in years. The 800 pound gorilla got old and grey...
 
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