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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Panavision PRIMO PRIMES, how does Red Pro Primes compare?

J

Jon MIchael Puntervold

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I'm looking for a set of lenses to mimic the Hollywood blockbuster look of the early 90's and and 80's (i.e. Jurassic Park). My initial though was using RPP's. What do you think, any better suggestions (on a budget)?
 
Lighting would help....


what are looking to match exactly? Sharpness, broke, color. Etc...
 
Jon Carr said:
Lighting would help....
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You don't say? :)

Jon Carr said:
what are looking to match exactly? Sharpness, broke, color. Etc...
Click to expand...

As already written, Jurrassic Park I shot on Primos are a good example of the look I need for the spot. As I've never used Primos, and we don't have Panavision here, I'm looking for an alternative that might give similar results.
 
Cooke zooms, maybe super speeds or Zeiss standards.

RPPs are not soft. They may not be master primes, but they are certainly sharper than most lenses from the 80s and early 90s.

really though, most of the "look" (compared to images you see today) is that until 1998 or 1999, there really was no color correction in a DI stage. Just primaries in an optical printer. So to me, the "look" comes from going from OCN, though the chain, ending in a print. That does things to the color that just really doesn't happen these days.
 
The closest look to Primos would be the new Leica Summilux -C's. The Primo's use Leica glass and are designed by the same man. So if that is the look you want, theres your answer.

The closest look to that other than the Summilux-c's would probably be Cooke S4's or MiniS4's. Followed by Super Speeds down to RPP's and CP'2s being least to resemble. RPP's and CP.2's are sharp and contrasty unlike the Primos.
 
Matt Ryan said:
Followed by Super Speeds down to RPP's and CP'2s being least to resemble. RPP's and CP.2's are sharp and contrasty unlike the Primos.
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Thank you, as I already have a set of early SuperSpeeds in-house, maybe using them around T2.5 and above is the best way to go...

Leica R's would be interesting though, but I don't have access to them, and I'm not a fan of still glass on narrative productions.
 
Jon MIchael Puntervold said:
Thank you, as I already have a set of early SuperSpeeds in-house, maybe using them around T2.5 and above is the best way to go...

Leica R's would be interesting though, but I don't have access to them, and I'm not a fan of still glass on narrative productions.
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If you already have SuperSpeeds, then that would be my choice too.

Still photo lenses have an interesting look. I immediately thought of the Leica R when reading this thread, although I've only used them once.

If your production can stand, or better yet benefit from, a little breathing then good modern still glass (like Zeiss or Leica) is a neat low cost tool.

Practically speaking, the focus throws on those lenses are plenty for most AC's. Get a set "cinevised" by Duclos or try Zeiss's compact prime (CP.2) lenses, as the lack of focus gear and variable front diameter are the biggest issues. Aside from these issues, and a very few idiosyncrasies, the image quality is usually better than older cine lenses.

The only "no go" for me on these lenses is if you need aperture pulls. (Not a concern with Zeiss CP.2) Once or twice an uncontrollable lighting situation might require a pull, and I can accept pulling on the barrel that much. More than that, and I'm back to proper motion lenses.

I don't recommend the Zeiss SLR or CP lenses for giving an older look though, as they are tack sharp like the RPP.

This may not be the shoot, but I suggest testing a set or two of these new low end lenses sometime. Their fun, and relatively cheap.
 
Jon MIchael Puntervold said:
Thank you, as I already have a set of early SuperSpeeds in-house, maybe using them around T2.5 and above is the best way to go...

Leica R's would be interesting though, but I don't have access to them, and I'm not a fan of still glass on narrative productions.
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Older Super Speeds would be fine for achieving what you want I would have thought. Just try to incorporate some of the more common visual tropes from the blockbusters of that era (lots of steam coming up through grates, and hosed down sets to reflect light back upwards in night shots) things like that. Also, hazers and hard lights will be your friends.
 
If you want the definitive look, you should find a house and rent a set of Movicam Prime lens. Otherwise I'd shoot K35. I want to use Movicam on my up coming feature. You might have to go to some strange places to find a set. They are BNRC mounts so be ready for that.
 
Alexander Ibrahim said:
I don't recommend the Zeiss SLR or CP lenses for giving an older look though, as they are tack sharp like the RPP.
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That's why Leica-R and Zeiss Contax are the way to go. Both are older than "modern" stills lenses, and not as clinical. But have superb cinema mechanics and resolution, cover full frame (and 6K), and are affordable.

Leica R's are more "primo"
Zeiss Contax are very similar to Super Speeds (from the same Zeiss era)
 
Panavision lenses are absolutely unique in the industry. There is nothing that really gets close. That being said, you'd be best off looking at older glass with some noticeable imperfections. The new Leica Sum-Cs would yield a very sharp, ultra 2013 "look". I would recommend against that (unless you decide to smudge a bunch of fingerprints on the rear elements...). Older Panavision prime lenses get their unique "look" primarily from the amount of glass elements within each lens and their perfectly circular iris. As Darren noted, the Canon K-35s would be a very good choice as they are a bit soft and have completely circular irises. A nice set of Super Baltars would also work well. And, if you could find a set of Todd AO anamorphics you'd get the "Die Hard look" instantaneously...
 
I like Adrians calls they are pretty on. I only call on the Movicam glass because they where used to shoot "Aliens" I don't know about you but I think "Aliens" has that definitive classic taste to the image. K35's design is largely what the Movicam glass is based off of.

 
I own a set of Canon K35's and I'm really surprised when these lenses are proposed to mimic or replace the look of Panavision spherical Primos, which came out circa 1989. The K35's are older designs and are much softer, more prone to flare and veiling than Primos, which have a sharper, more detailed look and are much more flare resistant, not to mention that they are all color matched and have way less chromatic aberrations. To me, Primos are some kind of mix between the sharp look of Ultra Primes and the gentle focus fall-off of S4's, with a bokeh that sometimes is hard to distinguish from the Cookes.

Yes, it's true that sets of K35's were used for "Aliens", but that wasn't the norm of the day, as most big-budget productions from the 80's and early 90's were either shot anamorphic on Panavision, JDC or Technovision glass (basically, rehoused old Cookes and Zeiss primes) or were shot spherically using Zeiss Standard or Superspeed glass (as James Cameron himself did on "True Lies" and most probably on both "The Abyss" and "T2" as well, both Super 35 non-Panavision shows). By the time he shot "Titanic", Cameron switched to Primos (Caleb Deschanel, who was the film's original cinematographer on the 1st unit, seems to prefer Panavision cameras & lenses), probably because their sharper look helped to make a better quality 'Super 35 to 35mm anamorphic' optical blow-up, as was required back then. I distinctly remember how sharp and tridimensional were the few daylight/sunset scenes on Titanic's deck (shot on 50 ASA Kodak stock) on the theatrical prints, which still are among the sharpest 35mm footage I've ever seen, including stuff shot on Master Primes and contact printed, so I don't think anyone willing to imitate the look of Panavision Primos would make a wise choice by choosing soft lenses.
 
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Ignacio Aguilar said:
I own a set of Canon K35's and I'm really surprised when these lenses are proposed to mimic or replace the look of Panavision spherical Primos, which came out circa 1989. The K35's are older designs and are much softer, more prone to flare and veiling than Primos, which have a sharper, more detailed look and are much more flare resistant, not to mention that they are all color matched and have way less chromatic aberrations. To me, Primos are some kind of mix between the sharp look of Ultra Primes and the gentle focus fall-off of S4's, with a bokeh that sometimes is hard to distinguish from the Cookes.

Yes, it's true that sets of K35's were used for "Aliens", but that wasn't the norm of the day, as most big-budget productions from the 80's and early 90's were either shot anamorphic on Panavision, JDC or Technovision glass (basically, rehoused old Cookes and Zeiss primes) or were shot spherically using Zeiss Standard or Superspeed glass (as James Cameron himself did on "True Lies" and most probably on both "The Abyss" and "T2" as well, both Super 35 non-Panavision shows). By the time he shot "Titanic", Cameron switched to Primos (Caleb Deschanel, who was the film's original cinematographer on the 1st unit, seems to prefer Panavision cameras & lenses), probably because their sharper look helped to make a better quality 'Super 35 to 35mm anamorphic' optical blow-up, as was required back then. I distinctly remember how sharp and tridimensional were the few daylight/sunset scenes on Titanic's deck (shot on 50 ASA Kodak stock) on the theatrical prints, which still are among the sharpest 35mm footage I've ever seen, including stuff shot on Master Primes and contact printed, so I don't think anyone willing to imitate the look of Panavision Primos would make a wise choice by choosing soft lenses.
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Ignacio, this was one of the most informative posts I've read in weeks. Thanks so much!

I noticed your working in Madrid (where I was born!). My father, Rafael Alcazar, has been working in TV/Film biz in Madrid for decades. As an indie Director/Producer. Who knows, maybe you're paths have crossed at some point!
 
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