Panasonic's ALEXA killer?

[Rob Ruffo]

These companies like Panasonic and Sony sat on their technology and thumbed out scraps to the public for years. Sony could have made a S35mm 4K 60fps video camera 5 years ago. Or at least S35mm/60fps. But they did not want to undercut their $250K 1080p cameras. If Jim had not come along to shake things up and push them in the right direction, none of these companies would be doing what they are doing now. Canon 4K camera? Sony APS-C video camera with interchangeable lenses? Panasonic S35mm? Forget about it. They would still be trying to push 1/4" and 1/3" and 2/3" cameras on us.

Don't underestimate what Jim has done, the true effects of which are only now coming to fruition.

I don't know about that. There aren't 100s of Graemmes sitting around looking for work.

It's like actors - you think there are tons of great actors around, from all the waiters who hand you 8x10s - but the minute you do a casting you realize that isn't true at all.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

If this camera's HDSDI connected to Aja ki pro mini and the output QT Pro Res 4.2.2, this can be a good combination. At this stage I look at Alexa as an expensive QT Prores 4.2.2 camera.

But again, teh Panny cam, while I'm sure great for the money, will never give you the same quality in terms of color rendition. teh kidn of clients I care about having care a lot about things liek that. They want the best, period.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Panasonic launched a 4/3" still camera for around $1500...with manual control, EVF, swivle screen, 24/25/30p and 60p at a time everyone else was selling 30p auto DSLRs.... Panasonic are trailblazers

And when did they do that? Before Jim changed the landscape? Or after? And there's no need to toss around terms like "rubbish." We are all friends here. We have different outlooks and ideas about technology. My outlook is essentially 99% the same as Jim Jannard's. Are you going to call Jim's outlook "rubbish"?

I don't know about that. There aren't 100s of Graemmes sitting around looking for work.

It's like actors - you think there are tons of great actors around, from all the waiters who hand you 8x10s - but the minute you do a casting you realize that isn't true at all.

Companies like Sony and Canon are R&D POWERHOUSES. They could have made large-sensor video cameras that shoot 60fps and use PL or interchangeable glass five years ago, easily. But they were protecting their $70K - $250K 2/3" cameras, most of which could not even shoot 60fps.

 

[MichaelHalsell]

Choice is very important. To many varied needs and applications. Even RED will admit that choice is good. Jim stated the new Epic is the only camera you will ever need. If RED truly believed that, why waste time and money developing the Scarlet. There is no über product. No single widget does it all. Even the RED One (M) needed a refresh.

But specifically in this narrow category of conversation, there maybe, actually there will be, other non-RED cameras that prosper because of pricing, availabilty and functionality.

 

[David Rasberry]

If this camera's HDSDI connected to Aja ki pro mini and the output QT Pro Res 4.2.2, this can be a good combination. At this stage I look at Alexa as an expensive QT Prores 4.2.2 camera.

AF100 will be a great student filmmaker's camera. I thought Panasonic would do this first when the GH1 came out since that market is huge for them.
But it is still an just an 8 bit 1080p HD camcorder, both for internal long GOP recording and for HDSDI output ( confirmed by their engineering spokesperson Jan) Plus the format is so new that there is a very limited selection of practical lenses for it.

At least as far as I'm concerned, not even competition for Scarlet 2/3", though certainly it will be a step up in both practical functionality and image quality from the VDSLR's. Alexa I am sure is a far superior camera in every respect, even for Prores recording.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Right direction for Panasonic for sure and it can compete with Alexa especially
at the third world markets, independent filmmakers, students, enthusiasts, etc,...
just because is more versatile, lighter, also can get PL glass with adapter and it's cheaper
to acquire HD images but also can't compare with R1-MX 4.5K @ 14 DR stops.

Weight: Approx. 1.2kg(2.64lb) [camera recorder only]
External measurements: W163mm x L209.4mm x H195mm
(W 6-2/5inches x L 8-1/5inces x 7-7/10 inches) [including handle, grip]


-Internal ND filter: 1/4, 1/16, 1/64 or Off (rotary switch).
-Focus-assist function: edge coloration, focus bar display.
-DRS (Dynamic Range Stretch): automatically reduces compression of black or blown highlights in high contrast scenes.
-Thumbnail viewing, clip deletion and SD card to SD card copying and meta-data recording functions.
-Pre-rec and Interval rec functions.
-Relay recording: Relay recording from one SD card to another without interrupt.
-WFM display function: the wave form of the video being recorded is easily displayed on an LCD monitor.
-Shot mark function: the useful shot mark function allows marking of clips as good, bad or others.
-User buttons: three user buttons allow high-frequency functions to be performed with a single push.
-Audio volumes: allows manual adjustment of audio inputs (2 ch).
-Video output (pin jack x 1), HD/SD SDI output (BNC x 1), HDMI output (HDMI Type A x 1).
-USB 2.0 (Type B) allows connection to PC/Mac.
-XLR audio inputs (XLR x 2, Line/Mike selectable, +48V compatible), Internal microphone (stereo).
-Audio outputs (RCA x 2), Headphone (stereo mini jack x 1 (3.5mm diameter)).
-Camera Remote (super mini jack x 1; zoom, S/S, mini jack x 1; focus, iris).

Panasonic AG-AF100 Micro Four Thirds Camcorder >>>

Panasonic page>>>

 

[Chris Gold]

The main thing that scares me about this camera is that it is using the same sensor as the Gh1, which was (I assume) designed primarily for stills use. How are they debayering into 16:9?

I have no doubt this camera will outperform HDSLR's, but I am still waiting for someone (besides red & arri) to make a large sensor designed for video from the beggining. How much better could the video be if it was an 8 megapixel 16:9 shaped 4/3 sized sensor made for video?

 

[Jim Retar]

And when did they do that? Before Jim changed the landscape? Or after? And there's no need to toss around terms like "rubbish." We are all friends here. We have different outlooks and ideas about technology. My outlook is essentially 99% the same as Jim Jannard's. Are you going to call Jim's outlook "rubbish"?

I apologise for that... I'm a big fan of Panasonic and can get a bit passionate when their ideas are dismissed as being born from RED.

I'm not sure you should be too quick to tie your views directly to Jim's though... who knows how he feels about Panasonic?... i'd imagine he quite likes them and knows they are forward thinkers, listen to customers and have helped bring indie filmaking to the masses. This forum itself is based around the DVX forum... so Jarred, at least, knows how passionate people are about Panny and why they are so passionate. Do you think a Sony or Canon forum would ever be the success of DVXuser? Panasonic are gods among the budget indie.

Do you honestly think, when Panasonic/Lumix came to developing their 4/3" camera that they chose a $17500 camera to base their ideas around?

I think they had a video system in place.... and then used their years of experience in indie camera production to take all of the constructive cristism being dish out to the other DSLRs and made a camera that ticked most of the boxes that people were crying out for.

All I ask is people here give them some credit.

RED has pushed alot of camera firms... but the DSLR boom? not really. It was inevitable progression from VGA recording that these cameras already did. Remember, when the D90 and 5DII dropped... Red were still going for 3k/$3k with a 2/3" fixed lens.... Canon et al were not worried.

 

[Jim Retar]

The main thing that scares me about this camera is that it is using the same sensor as the Gh1

Jan and Barry Green both state that it is not the GH1 sensor.

 

[David Rasberry]

The main thing that scares me about this camera is that it is using the same sensor as the Gh1, which was (I assume) designed primarily for stills use. How are they debayering into 16:9?

I have no doubt this camera will outperform HDSLR's, but I am still waiting for someone (besides red & arri) to make a large sensor designed for video from the beggining. How much better could the video be if it was an 8 megapixel 16:9 shaped 4/3 sized sensor made for video?

Panasonic has said this camera has a brand new sensor, not the same as the GH1, more optimized for video. If it is close to the hacked version of the GH1 it should produce pretty decent video at least to an external recorder via the HDSDI output. It is still 24Mbit/sec max to the internal cards though.

 

[Chris Gold]

Really has that changed? I remember the Panasonic rep Jan C. said it was using the same sensor on the DVX user forums some months ago, although it was going to have an optical low pass filter to reduce alaising. If they have devided redesign the sensor since then, then that is very good news indeed.

 

[David Rasberry]

Really has that changed? I remember the Panasonic rep Jan C. said it was using the same sensor on the DVX user forums some months ago, although it was going to have an optical low pass filter to reduce alaising. If they have devided redesign the sensor since then, then that is very good news indeed.

Probably the new one going in the GH2.

 

[Tom Lowe]

I apologise for that... I'm a big fan of Panasonic and can get a bit passionate when their ideas are dismissed as being born from RED.

I'm not sure you should be too quick to tie your views directly to Jim's though... who knows how he feels about Panasonic?... i'd imagine he quite likes them and knows they are forward thinkers, listen to customers and have helped bring indie filmaking to the masses. This forum itself is based around the DVX forum... so Jarred, at least, knows how passionate people are about Panny and why they are so passionate. Do you think a Sony or Canon forum would ever be the success of DVXuser? Panasonic are gods among the budget indie.

Do you honestly think, when Panasonic/Lumix came to developing their 4/3" camera that they chose a $17500 camera to base their ideas around?

I think they had a video system in place.... and then used their years of experience in indie camera production to take all of the constructive cristism being dish out to the other DSLRs and made a camera that ticked most of the boxes that people were crying out for.

All I ask is people here give them some credit.

RED has pushed alot of camera firms... but the DSLR boom? not really. It was inevitable progression from VGA recording that these cameras already did. Remember, when the D90 and 5DII dropped... Red were still going for 3k/$3k with a 2/3" fixed lens.... Canon et al were not worried.

Timeline...

1. Companies like Sony and Pansonic release "indie" 1/4" 1/3" cameras, plus "high end" 2/3" 1080p cameras for astronomical prices generally out of reach for most people. Said companies refuse to put out "prosumer" S35 or APS-C cameras with interchangleable lenses for fear of undercutting their massively expensive 2/3" models. Instead, they parcel out bullshit 720p cameras to the "indie" crowd with nonsense codecs, no ability to upgrade sensors, no ability to add important features via frequent firmware updates, and no ability to produce decent-looking images to rival film. Nevermind that all of this could have easily been done at any time, by any of these companies. The technology was always there.

2. Jim Jannard releases Red One S35 RAW cinema camera for $17.5K and turns the industry upside down, even if it took many of his competitors waaaaaay too long to see what was about to happen to them.

3. Two years after Red is announced, with no $250K 2/3" 1080p cameras to protect in their lineup (and apparently wisely deciding that protecting their 2/3" ENG lenses was no longer justification for missing out on hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars of profit) , Canon releases the 5D Mark II and sells gazillions of units, prompting them to literally build a new factory just to keep up with demand. But, you see, the demand was always there. Shooters have literally been dying to get an affordable HD camera with large sensor and interchangeable lenses for a decade. But Sony, Panasonic, etc, refused to put them out.

4. "Indie" shooters instantly drop the HVX 200 like a bad habit and start buying 5D2s by the tens of thousands. Taking a cue from Jim, Canon offers significant upgrades to the 5D2 via firmware (24p, manual control, etc).

5. Sony and Panasonic panic, realizing that the game is over. No more withholding large-sensor, interchangeable-lens technology. At one point, Panasonic literally copies Jim Jannard and offers a $30K "trade in" value for certain of their outdated 2/3" 1080p cameras, in a desperate attempt to prevent Jim from eating their entire lunch.

6. Too late. Jim starts eating everyone's lunch. Now Sony, Panasonic, etc, are in a complete panic. As if at gunpoint, Sony finally starts releasing large-sensor video cameras with interchangeable lens -- sensors larger than their recent $200K "flagship" F23 (still 2/3"!!!!). Panasonic tries to stop the bleeding with a half-ass 4/3 camera that hopefully will not cause full-blown riots among their Varicam owners, who are quickly heading for Jim's Red cameras anyway. Realizing their entire camera division is now at stake, Panasonic finally starts putting out cameras at least heading in the right direction (large sensor, interchangeable lenses, etc), which is the camera you see in this thread.

You can thank Jim Jannard for that.

 

[Jim Retar]

Or another timeline:

1) Nikon launch D90... gets the interest of micro budget indies..

2) Canon 5DII launches and proves this niche market is a winner.

3) Panasonic compete with the GH1.... adding the features everyone is crying for.

4) Their loyal fan base (headed by pros like Barry Green) cry out for a pro version in camcorder body... they respond.

To be honest... I don't really care who is pushing who as long as the industry moves forward.... just try to give some credit to other companies. There are a hell of alot of people (probably many on here) that owe a great deal to Panasonic for allowing us onto the film making path at an affordable price. They parallel RED quite well.

 

[Leo Ticheli]

Jim Jannard is responsible for bringing relatively affordable large-format motion picture cameras into the world. Panasonic and Canon have brought cheap large-format cameras to us, and doubtless Nikon will not sit it out.

In the current environment, is any 2/3" camera viable, including the Scarlet?

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

 

[Michael Hastings]

Tom:

I love what RED has done, but I think sometimes you miss one of the most important points which is that the vast majority of motion picture shooting that is done "professionally" i.e. material for which people get paid to create - whether it is TV, documentary, corporate, instructional, etc. - is better done with smaller sensor cameras.

Quite often the peak of technology isn't what drives purchases or usage decisions. I was surprised, as many were here, to learn from a REDUSER that most of the Planet Earth series was shot on 720P Varicams instead of 1080P HDCAMs because 60fps was more important than resolution. By the same token, I've often said that I think RED would have been just as successful in terms of sales numbers, and maybe more so, with a 2K/1080P APS-C camera. It was the sensor size more than anything else (combined with efficient onboard recording) but they were still tapping into a very small market of indie producers. Six or seven thousand cameras worldwide is really a very small number relative to 1/3", 1/2", and 2/3" cameras being used for those "professional" applications. For my purposes - underwater and nature documentary and stock - like much of your application, it is about pure image quality and resolution so I'm glad RED went 4K but we need to be realistic about the fact that for many things "good enough" is good enough.

The extreme success of the vDSLR had more to do with price and HD COMBINED WITH very high quality stills so in a lot of ways the HD capability was "free". Many people like the shallow DOF, but probably as many or more would be just as happy if they could window the sensor to 2/3" and less aliased 1080P and greater depth of field that is helpful in a LOT of situations.

Sony and Panasonic developed their 2/3" "cinema" systems because that's what made sense at the time in terms of extension of development from what they already had in the pipeline, very mature lens systems, etc. But these companies can't just figure out what they would like to do and delay for years. They have numerous product segments, marketing mixes and timelines, ad plans, factory production considerations, etc.

Red has the advantage of a deeppockets, passionate and committed visionary entrepreneur that doesn't have to worry about all that stuff.
We Redusers are the beneficiary of this moment in time, and that is great.

But it doesn't make all the other guys schmucks simply because they have to fit into a bigger picture.

 

[Noah Kadner]

I wouldn't write the obits of Panasonic, Sony, Canon, etc., just yet. I'd say the good folks at those companies hardly feel like their lunch has been eaten for them, more likely they're all eating quite well these days. Canon had an amazing year with their DSLR video cams and Panasonic is on deck with their interchangeable lens HD camcorder- which addresses nearly all of the ergonomic and fotmat shortcomings video pros have had with DSLRs.

Yes RED has rocked an amazing product that accelerated the development timelines and technology at other camera companies. But those folks have plenty of resources and brain trust backing them as well and are adapting to their new competition in ways no one could have predicted.

RED has become a significant player on a crowded playing field- yes. But they don't rule that field just yet nor do I think they truly expected to. Check back in 10, 15 20 years and we'll be in a better position to evaluate how everyone fared in this game- including us, the customers.

Noah

 

[M Most]

Jim starts eating everyone's lunch. Now Sony, Panasonic, etc, are in a complete panic.

Sony and Panasonic (and Canon, for that matter) are very large companies that sell millions of units of many products every year. They are hardly "in a complete panic."

What Red did was create a market that never really existed before, and then expanded that newly created market by refining the early product, making it more capable, more reliable, and more viable for larger productions. The established companies like Sony and Panasonic are far more concentrated in broadcast and consumer products than they are or ever will be in digital cinema products. Red, on the other hand, to this point is exclusively a digital cinema company - it's even part of the company name - and have no presence in either broadcast or consumer camera or recording products. So you're comparing apples and pomegranates and then drawing some rather hyperbolic conclusions from that unrealistic comparison.

 

[Tom Lowe]

In the current environment, is any 2/3" camera viable, including the Scarlet?

1. Sure. For action sports, for example, a 2/3 120fps RAW camera will be awesome.

Sony and Panasonic developed their 2/3" "cinema" systems because that's what made sense at the time in terms of extension of development from what they already had in the pipeline, very mature lens systems, etc. But these companies can't just figure out what they would like to do and delay for years. They have numerous product segments, marketing mixes and timelines, ad plans, factory production considerations, etc.

2. Ok, then these companies are either totally clueless about what indie shooters really wanted, or it was a business conspiracy of some type. Or a combination of both. Which was it?

Red has the advantage of a deep pockets, passionate and committed visionary entrepreneur that doesn't have to worry about all that stuff.
We Redusers are the beneficiary of this moment in time, and that is great.

Exactly.

But it doesn't make all the other guys schmucks simply because they have to fit into a bigger picture.

In my opinion it does. It was either incompetence, or a plan to withhold the technology customers really wanted.

Sony and Panasonic (and Canon, for that matter) are very large companies that sell millions of units of many products every year. They are hardly "in a complete panic."

What Red did was create a market that never really existed before, and then expanded that newly created market by refining the early product, making it more capable, more reliable, and more viable for larger productions. The established companies like Sony and Panasonic are far more concentrated in broadcast and consumer products than they are or ever will be in digital cinema products. Red, on the other hand, to this point is exclusively a digital cinema company - it's even part of the company name - and have no presence in either broadcast or consumer camera or recording products. So you're comparing apples and pomegranates and then drawing some rather hyperbolic conclusions from that unrealistic comparison.

We are talking about digital motion cameras.

 

[Tom Lowe]

I wouldn't write the obits of Panasonic, Sony, Canon, etc., just yet. I'd say the good folks at those companies hardly feel like their lunch has been eaten for them, more likely they're all eating quite well these days. Canon had an amazing year with their DSLR video cams

Noah, I was very, very careful not to include Canon among the companies from which Jim is drinking milkshakes. As I pointed out, Canon has profited HUGELY just by simply putting out a 1080p large-format, interchangeable lens camera -- exactly the technology that Sony and Panasonic withheld for years. Only now, with Jim and Canon holding guns to either side of their heads, are Sony and Panasonic releasing this technology.