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Panasonic TH-42PF11UK and Aja hd sdi to hdmi

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Ryan T. Gibb

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Hello,

I'm looking at getting a Panasonic TH-42PF11UK plasma TV for CC and I understand that their HDMI is 1.2a which is supposedly 10bit. Now I'm wondering if an Aja HD SDI to HDMI in conjunction with a blackmagic card would actually work with the 1.2a and give me 10bit color. Does anyone have experience that HDMI 1.2a can actually do 10bit? Thanks, Ryan
 
The HDMI specification is for it to accept a 10 bit signal.

I think you need HDMI 1.3 "Deepcolor" (1.3a ??) to actually attempt to use anything more than 8 bits. Earlier HDMI revisions would just truncate the lower bits.

The thing is that you are still looking at an 8 bit panel... if you are lucky. A lot of consumer panels are 6 bit.

In fact I don't know of any 10 bit HDMI panels.

If you really need to see 10 bit color depth then an HP Dreamcolor display is your cheapest option.
 
Alexander

The Panasonic 11 Series plasmas can display a true 10 bit color. They are capable of over 1024 graduations per channel, which is the spec for 10 bit color. You need the HD-SDI board for 10 bit input though as HDMI board only supports 8bit. They should have a new HDMI board supporting 10bit soon.

In Fact any new or next generation plasma can support 10 bit color and the new 12 series can display more than 10bits.

Cheers
Matt
 
I don't understand the problem of diplaying 8bit as human eye is not capable of differencing more than 255 values.

There would be a banding and color issue if the pannel didn't display 8bit. 10 or more bit are only important for the source material (IMHO) as it is supposed to go through color correcting and those informations are criticals as they will be stretched and pushed into the finishing look.

Pat

PS: it's alwas great to have more but if not needed what's the heck?
 
Patrick

I can't dispute if the human eye can see more than 255 shades of a color, as that is not my expertise. I feel that to be low and I personally can see gradation steps in 8 bit displays.

I believe where 10bit displays shine are the display of color gradations. Your eye can easily see the difference between one step and the next on an 8bit panel. Look at any sunset or sunrise show and really look at it critically, you can see the steps of color. Even if the eye is only capable of seeing only 255 shade of a color, we can easily perceive the difference in color gradations when they are next too each other.

Looking at a solid color on a panel, and then looking at the next color gradation on the same panel, all full screen, i agree most people will not be able to tell the difference as there is no point of reference.

Cheers
Matt Riggieri
 
Dave Blackham said:
The issues of the human eye I cant answer, but if you are dealing with monitoring 10 bit images then you do need a 10 bit display or quantising errors may be seen. This is the minimum requirement for HD.
Click to expand...

Tons of films where made with an 8bit aquisition format like HDCAM and none complainded about 8 or 10 bit display.

Starwar was made with the F900 in scope (from 1440x1080) blown to 35mm prints didn't show this kind of troubles!

Pat
 
Dave Blackham said:
I ask Panasonic about this. This is the relevant part of the mail from them. I have also asked for the info to be verified as you are correct as the 1.2A is 8bit. The response reads.

The HDMI version we use on the TY-FB10HMD board is version 1.2A.
So although it covers a little bit of the HDMI v3 standard, it doesn't cover all the criteria.

Our HDMI board can handle 10 bit video processing, same as our DVI board (TY-FB9FDD).

Our latest version of HDMI, which should be out with our next generation screens will be version 1.4.
Click to expand...

Panasonic is claiming that their HDMI 1.2a is 10bit and I am just wondering if anyone has had actual real life experience that it is? Then on top of that if an AJA Hi5 3G/Dual-link/HD/SD-SDI to HDMI would actually work with it. I'm just looking for a cheaper way that having to buy the Dual link card for the plasma screen which is like 2300 dollars
 
It still seems unconfirmed. I've had Panasonic engineers give me different stories. I know that feeding a confirmed 10bit HDMI signal from a Kona LHi card did not work going into a TH-PF11UK. ...But it works just fine going into my consumer TC-P46G10.

It seems confirmed that the HDMI board is 1.2A compliant and it's possible the HDMI board I used back when I did the test was a prior model. Of course it had the same part number of the current board. Although the 1.x designation isn't really that important. What is important is if the display itself will take a 10bit HDMI signal and allow it to remain 10bits all the way through the display path.

For those looking to buy a plasma now, go for the 12 series, they really are noticeably better. The TH-PF12UK is really nice. I would take it with the current HDMI and just plan to upgrade the HDMI interface later on as it seems the next one will be 1.4 compliant. Although, if you don't need SDI and only need HDMI, then one of the consumer panels will work just as well as the service menu functions will give most of the needed adjustment tools to calibrate the display.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
It still seems unconfirmed. I've had Panasonic engineers give me different stories. I know that feeding a confirmed 10bit HDMI signal from a Kona LHi card did not work going into a TH-PF11UK. ...But it works just fine going into my consumer TC-P46G10.

It seems confirmed that the HDMI board is 1.2A compliant and it's possible the HDMI board I used back when I did the test was a prior model. Of course it had the same part number of the current board. Although the 1.x designation isn't really that important. What is important is if the display itself will take a 10bit HDMI signal and allow it to remain 10bits all the way through the display path.

For those looking to buy a plasma now, go for the 12 series, they really are noticeably better. The TH-PF12UK is really nice. I would take it with the current HDMI and just plan to upgrade the HDMI interface later on as it seems the next one will be 1.4 compliant. Although, if you don't need SDI and only need HDMI, then one of the consumer panels will work just as well as the service menu functions will give most of the needed adjustment tools to calibrate the display.
Click to expand...

I've asked both Panasonic in the UK and US to give a definitive answer on this card implementation and await to hear back. Ill post here what I know when I have a reply. I do know they say that HDMI 1.4 will be implemented when the replacement card is available. Hopefully the 12 series will be available in the 42 and 50 sizes soon.

The other point is the panasonic DVi card is the same spec as the HDMI card in terms of bit depth (yet to be confirmed) so you could always go HDMI to DVI.

They are great displays which ever.
 
I've heard back from Panasonic now about this. They say the dual HDMI FB10HMD card should only support 8 bits. This was not as previously stated at 10 bit support. The next card due to be released is thought to be HDMI 1.4 which the spec says supports greater than 10bit.
 
Look guys, both the HDMI 1.3a and HD-SDI specifications support 10 bit signals. (I think HD-SDI requires 10 bit)

They DO NOT require 10 bit panels. Just that the electronics be able to process a 10 bit signal.

So, if you have a 8 bit panel there is no way to get that panel to actually display 10 bit color.

Hence the confusion from manufacturer representatives. They are 10 bit - as far as signal handling and processing. The display panel is 8 bit, and thus what reaches your eyes is 8 bit.

In fact in the professional displays there are a number of 8 bit panels with 14 bit processing. (Most of the pro displays 17" & up feature high bit depth signal processing.) It doesn't matter though- you see an 8 bit picture. These are good 8 bit panel displays, and they have lots of useful pro features, but they are 8 bit displays.

A 10 bit panel is usually tens of thousands of dollars, and they are relatively small. 23-24" usually.

In fact, the even worse news is that a lot of computer and consumer displays feature 6 bit panels. They use a lot of dithering and other techniques just to compete with 8 bit display panels. These displays still have 10 bit signal processing, but they are just 6 bit displays.


The very cheapest 10 bit panel is the HP Dreamcolor at about $2000 USD as I write. If you need that level of performance, there is your panel. It even has HDMI inputs. If you want SDI or other pro i/o on it then you need to get one of the AJA or BlackMagic boxes for it. So get it, and get it properly calibrated.

The Dreamcolor can be a very good display, but it can't deliver the performance of the Cinetal or Sony BVM displays.
 
Alexander Ibrahim said:
Look guys, both the HDMI 1.3a and HD-SDI specifications support 10 bit signals. (I think HD-SDI requires 10 bit)

They DO NOT require 10 bit panels. Just that the electronics be able to process a 10 bit signal.

So, if you have a 8 bit panel there is no way to get that panel to actually display 10 bit color.

Hence the confusion from manufacturer representatives. They are 10 bit - as far as signal handling and processing. The display panel is 8 bit, and thus what reaches your eyes is 8 bit.
Click to expand...

Umm... No. These panels are not 8bit. Where did you get that info? Panasonic PDP panels haven't been 8bit since about the 5th generation panels over 4 years ago. And even then, plasma is an analog display technology, so bit restrictions on the display itself are entirely limited to internal processing. With plasma, what matters is the contrast ratio and subfield response time. Current gen plasma panels from most manufacturers have subfield response times of at least 400Hz. Panny 12th gen panels use a 600Hz subfield cycle. They could technically be capable of 12bits of measurable range, however they only accept a 10bit signal as their top input option.

The reason for the confusion is that the Panny 11 and 12 series panels are fully capable of displaying a 10bit+ signal and do so via HD-SDI. However, with the 10th-gen panels, the HDMI option of the time was 1.1 compliant and only 8bit. They upgraded the HMDI module not too long after the 11-series was out, but never published specs for the new module. No one seems to know the specs, not even Panasonic. It seems confirmed now that it's v1.2A compliant, which doesn't mean a whole lot because 10bit and even 12bit are allowed in the "Deep Color" spec, but not required to be supported. It could have support for 10bit signal input, or it may not. I have run a 10bit signal from a KONA LHi to a 42" 11-series with the current HDMI board and it would not display an image.

On my 46" Panny, which supports 10bit and 12bit HDMI input, I can see a noticeable increase in color fidelity with a 10bit signal. Only problem is I bought this panel since I was tired of waiting for the 12 series and no confirmed info on HDMI specs on their pro series. It's a great display, but calibration is a pain because all the adjustment controls are somewhat hidden in the service menu. And while it's great for HDMI, I could really use an HD-SDI input as well. So I'm still waiting for the 12-series 50" 1080p panels to start shipping. Hopefully the HDMI 1.4 Module for the display will be available by then or perhaps we can get direct clarification on input specs for the current module by then.

The LCD models are another matter. Most of them are indeed 8bit. Even the HP Dreamcolor (which I still can't figure out why it's so appealing to some) is technically 8bit. It's a bastardized 8bit LG panel that has essentially been converted to 10bit and combined with a 10bit/30bpc internal processing system. Decent monitor, but overpriced compared to newer and better options now on the market. For the same money, I'd take a 47" Samsung or LG 240Hz 10bit LED HDTV any day.

Anyway, it seems to me that you're talking about LCD panels and not plasma. However many of the new Samsung/Sony and LG LED-LCD panels are 10bit panels. All of Samsung's 240Hz panels are 10bit. The Samsung 480Hz prototypes being shown at CES are 12bit. This is not internal processing, this is native bit depth of the panel. Many of them have 16bits/channel (48bpc) internal processing on most of these new panels too.

A 10 bit panel is usually tens of thousands of dollars, and they are relatively small. 23-24" usually.
Click to expand...

I would have agreed with that statement two years ago as long as we were just talking about LCD tech.

In fact, the even worse news is that a lot of computer and consumer displays feature 6 bit panels.
Click to expand...

True. Even the LCDs used in the Macbook and Macbook Pro were 6bit until the current round. The current round of LED models are 8bit.

The Dreamcolor can be a very good display, but it can't deliver the performance of the Cinetal or Sony BVM displays.
Click to expand...

The Dreamcolor also pales in comparison to a properly configured Panny 11 or 12 series display or a Samsung LED HDTV. I think one of the nicest studio/grading displays I have seen is a well-calibrated 60" KURO, the black detail on the KUROs is insane when they're properly calibrated.
 
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Jeff Kilgroe said:
Umm... No.
Click to expand...

Well, I didn't believe you Jeff, so I checked.

The best references I saw mentioned gray levels that required 12 bits. That is not the same as 10 bit per channel color, but it does imply the ability to create similar gradation in color channels.

Long story short... I stand corrected.

The question now arises as to why they'd fail to use 10 bit or higher signal processing? Its common enough, required by REC 709 for HD-SDI and by HDMI 1.3a and 1.4. This is not high tech any more, and processing power shouldn't be a concern. Put differently it seems very silly, at first glance at any rate, not to include 10 bit signal processing.

Regards,
 
I learned yesterday from panasonic the HDMI And DVi cards is definitely 8bit, bummer, as we had been told it was 10 bit but a version of HDMI 1.2A. The new card to be released is likely to be HDMI 1.4 so will be 10bit or greater capable.

The only current way I know of getting 10bit in to the display is via SDI or HDSDI or dual link how ever the dual link card does not support SD signals.

Im told the internal processing in the display is much higher than 10bit (don't know what but may be 16bit) so should be fine for use.

An external LUT device is recomended Davio or Blackmagic to control the display to line up to rec 709 but it pretty close as is.
 
Series 11 -plasma

Series 11 -plasma

I just found a series 11 the Th-42PF11UK for 1770usd. Amazon.
Now to pair it with a MX02 or Kona LHI or mabye a kona 3 card.
I'll most likely get the MX02 for now do HDMI then Swap over to HD-SDI.
Or see how the new HDMI 1.4 looks. The nice thing about the Matrox is that I can use it on a MBP or MacPro. APPLE please hurry the frack up with the Macpro!
:ack2:
 
A PF11 42" for $1770? LOL. Terrible price. OK, I guess it's not too bad if it includes shipping. Then again the 42" isn't a very good bang for the buck. Not when the 58" PF12UK model is $2500 and has a newer generation panel.

Don't get a PF11 and hold your breath for HDMI 1.4. No guaranty the new HDMI boards will be compatible with the older displays. Panasonic will have new plasma models here shortly, I'm expecting to see some new Pro offerings at NAB and available by Siggraph. The consumer variants are already hitting retail channels now. The TC-P50VT25 50" has far superior black levels and phosphor recovery times compared to any current Pro Series model and it has full ISFccc controls and profiles for each input. The only catch is that there's no way to get SDI into the thing without using a SDI to HDMI converter. OTOH, I don't find HD-SDI input boards for the Pro Plasmas to be very appealing when they cost more than the 42" or 50" pro displays and the SDI to HDMI converters do such a good job.
 
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