Over-Cranking in 3D - How To ?

[Johnny Friday]

My question is more related to the new Firmware 4 build and possibly newer builds to come. But i'm aware that we can only overcrank using multiples of the time-base, but with the new build 4 and/or future builds, DO or WILL we have ability to over crank to "OTHER" FPS rather than just the multiples of the time-base? I'd like to shoot a time-base of 23.98 and overcrank to 30fps.....

* Is this possible with the new build?
* Will it EVER be possible?

....why can we NOT do this now? is this a rolling shutter issue i hear so much about? and no being able to sync easily except for time-base?

thanks.....

 

[Dave Blackham]

When this gets worked out can some one let me know, we need to use it. And also ramping, HDR, 3D....

 

[Pawel Achtel]

I doubt this will work. I have no idea how you ensure the ramping to be in sync with the external time code fed into the cameras. It would be really hard to maintain the sync as each camera would need to synchronise every exposure up to a varying fraction of the signal and, at the end of the ramp, miraculously arrive at a multiple of the base sync frequency. It's next to impossible.

I can't try it until 11 January, but I will give it a go since I have my 3D rig setup and I like ramping feature in wildlife.

I think a more likely scenario to implement ramping in 3D is that if the master camera could act as a tri level sync generator and feed to the slave. I think it would be possible (a bit easier than impossible) in such configuration, but at this stage I don't think the Epic can act as a tri-level sync source. I think Meizler module can, but I doubt such complicated functionality (a ramping tri-level sync generator) would be integrated at this stage.

 

[Johnny Friday]

Definitely a question for the RED Team here....the guys underground in the bunker.

 

[Johnny Friday]

NOT POSSIBLE---That is final word from RED....Ok, too bad.

 

[Bruce Allen]

How does a Phantom sync up then? How do scientific cameras sync?

Genlock is an old standard and if it can't handle it, needs to be supplanted.

Darn it, all we need is:
- a bit of metadata about camera settings
- some kind of timing pulse that can be sent and read at high precision between a bunch of cameras

Can't they just reprogram those stupid 3.5mm audio jacks that don't work properly anyway and build us a new 3D synch system?

I dunno... one camera sends a pulse, the other reads... or there is a central device instead?

BTW this is how Phantom does it: IRIG timecode.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRIG_timecode

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Johnny Friday]

Way to keep the conversation alive Bruce. Yes, keep up the R&D please. Shooting multiples of time-base is a drag. Does not leave much for options....especially when underwater and a full rotation of time-base FPS is a huge loss of light underwater.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Way to keep the conversation alive Bruce. Yes, keep up the R&D please. Shooting multiples of time-base is a drag. Does not leave much for options....especially when underwater and a full rotation of time-base FPS is a huge loss of light underwater.

High five!

Here's a nice bit of info from Mitch Gross from here:
http://www.cinematography.net/edited-pages/3D_Phantoms.htm

>> Standalone IRIG generators are not commonly available

I would amend that slightly to say that they are not commonly available for rental, but they out there for purchase.

IRIG is very common outside our industry. The military uses it and GPS uses it.

SMPTE simply cannot parse more than 60 individual events per second. Doesn't do one much good when shooting 1,4 million fps as one can on some Phantom cameras.

Mitch Gross
Applications Specialist
Abel Cine Tech

And another guy writes in:

My ESE HD-488 timecode master has the IRIG option plus GPS and NTP you
can get one to from ESE.

http://ese-web.com/

~Clark Graff
Propellerhead - VFX Supervisor - DIT Local 600
Los Angeles, Toronto, Vancouver

So, yeah. Sounds like this is a solved problem already. Hope that RED (and Arri and Sony) just move to use this standard instead of creating another one. Or heck. Just create something similar and make it cheap and work with Ambient and Denecke to get it on there. And put it in Meizler of coure. I don't want to hear that my $$$$$ module can only sync at certain rates. That sounds so... analog TV

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Johnny Friday]

High five!

I don't want to hear that my $$$$$ module can only sync at certain rates. That sounds so... analog TV

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

10-4.....yep, we are here in 2012 and in 5k and this seems trivial. BUT....it does seem to be outside of standard camera manufacturer accs.....but RED is known to be non-standard....

 

[paulherrin]

johnny... just sync both at 30 and drop them in a 24 timeline

 

[Johnny Friday]

Paul,
you cannot get sync when shooting 30fps...only way to get a sync is by choosing multiples of your time base, so when shooting 24fps, you can over crank at 48 and 96fps.

 

[TheBied]

Paul,
you cannot get sync when shooting 30fps...only way to get a sync is by choosing multiples of your time base, so when shooting 24fps, you can over crank at 48 and 96fps.

You can only sync in multiples of your input sync rate. Sync is possible at 29.97 and 30 even if your project rate is set to 23.98 or 24.

 

[Johnny Friday]

You can only sync in multiples of your input sync rate. Sync is possible at 29.97 and 30 even if your project rate is set to 23.98 or 24.

Scratching head now....Matt, i don't know what you mean. When i try to shoot via 23.98 time-base, then set FPS on LCD to 30fps....i don't get all green lights....and cannot shoot 30fps. What am i missing in this equation?

.....Can you explain how i can over-crank to 30fps on a time-base of 24. I've tried to get sync a few times and cannot get system operational....using a Denecke by the way.

 

[TheBied]

Scratching head now....Matt, i don't know what you mean. When i try to shoot via 23.98 time-base, then set FPS on LCD to 30fps....i don't get all green lights....and cannot shoot 30fps. What am i missing in this equation?

Which genlock source are you using?

 

[Johnny Friday]

johnny... just sync both at 30 and drop them in a 24 timeline

Paul, yep, i understand what you are saying now...shoot a 30fps time base and drop into 24p timeline....i suppose this has same effect...no sound on this end.

 

[TheBied]

Paul, yep, i understand what you are saying now...shoot a 30fps time base and drop into 24p timeline....i suppose this has same effect...no sound on this end.

You can try is this if you want it taken care of in camera:

Set project rate to 23.98
Set FPS slider to 29.97
Select 29.97 on your Denecke

The sensor SYNC should be green with these settings and you'll effectively be over-cranking in camera.

 

[Johnny Friday]

You can try is this if you want it taken care of in-camera:

Set project rate to 23.98
Set FPS slider to 29.97
Select 29.97 on your Denecke

The sensor SYNC should be green with these settings and you'll effectively be over-cranking in camera.

Thanks Matt, I'll give it a try.

 

[Jason Goodman]

I hope it's not bothersome that I am posting this again, but back in March I did some extensive testing in this regard and the results seem very relevant to this conversation. There are many useful frame rates that will sync in 3D on EPIC. I've posted a spreadsheet here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...lE&output=html

and you can find the original thread here:

Here's the original thread: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...ase&highlight=

Get a Denecke 3D SB-T

 

[Johnny Friday]

Jason, possible you can add the document again? It seems to be missing from your google docs....Yes, very relevant and appreciate you posting. Or, you can email to me at johnnyfriday(at) me.com
thanks....

...also link to reduser page does not take us there...

 

[Jason Goodman]

sorry about that, here it is

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AuJAHpbX6ekpdEt4d3BOcUk1ZDFnYlNROVhLdklKalE&output=html

and the original thread

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?74154-EPIC-genlock-and-shutter-phase&highlight=