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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Other 4K digital cinema cameras

Would love to point a Genesis or F35 at my charts - anyone got one spare they can loan me?

Graeme
 
Tom L said:
One could argue, I suppose, that the Genesis is essentially a 5K or 6K camera (5760x2160) that downsamples to 1080p output. It's not Bayer CMOS, though.
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That logic makes the Viper a true 4k, 27,600,000 pixel camera.
 
Stephen Williams said:
That logic makes the Viper a true 4k, 27,600,000 pixel camera.
Click to expand...

Yes, it does. Which only reinforces how one can either use or get hung up on numbers that don't tell the whole story, when in reality the only thing that's important is the image - which is why the mainstream industry has always attached the "K" label based on the image the camera produces, not how many pixels are on the sensor(s).
 
Of course, on a Viper, the extra resolution is vertical, not horizontal, which is always 1920. The vertical resolution (4320) is to cleverly allow for multiple vertical resolution outputs. Different rows are binned to do that, thus allowing that number to be only used for that purpose, not for that total resolution.

This is yet another example of having lots of pixels, and configuring them in a specific way for a specific use.

Graeme
 
M Most said:
A 4K projector doesn't require 4K source material, just as 4K source material doesn't require 4K finishing...
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I'd say that's not an apt analogy.

Clearly scailing higher resolution source material DOWN (ie- finishing 4k source at 2K) has benefits above and beyond aquiring and displaying at the same resolution.

Whereas having to scale lower reolution material UP (ie- projecting 2K material at 4K) does not have the same benefit of having source material resolution at least as high as the diaply resolution.

-sc
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Of course, on a Viper, the extra resolution is vertical, not horizontal, which is always 1920. The vertical resolution (4320) is to cleverly allow for multiple vertical resolution outputs. Different rows are binned to do that, thus allowing that number to be only used for that purpose, not for that total resolution.

This is yet another example of having lots of pixels, and configuring them in a specific way for a specific use.
Click to expand...

I agree. But, as in banking and statistics, one can use numbers to prove just about anything one wants to prove, especially when an explanation is not attached. That was my point.
 
Stephen Williams said:
That logic makes the Viper a true 4k, 27,600,000 pixel camera.
Click to expand...

It's not my logic, though. As you know, Stephan, I personally consider Red One, Genesis and Vipers to be essentially 1080p cameras, or 2K in the case of Red One. Based on my own experience, I would only consider a 5.5K+ Bayer camera to be "True 4K." Maybe someone could say Red One is a 3K camera, but 3K is not a format.

I was just pointing out that if Red One calls their camera "4K" then Panavision could make a case for calling Genesis "5.7K".
 
My problem is that I'm utterly spoiled by being able to go shoot something, take a CF card back to the computer and watch the footage, extract frames or do whatever it is I'm working on - in next to no time. I'd have to get someone to shoot the F23 / F35 for me and extract the frames!

Graeme
 
Yousuf Abbasi said:
This Phantom HD camera (link) is interesting... 65mm sensor with 4096x2440 max rez (large photosites?), 14-bit sensor depth, 144fps at 4K, flash memory hot-swapping... no idea what price is.

I'm assuming since bit depth is 14, that it records true RGB (4:4:4), but not sure. Looks interesting.....
Click to expand...

The Phantom HD isn't 4k, it's 2k/1080... the Phantom 65 is 4k (which uses 65/70mm lenses).

Phantom, actually Vision Research, makes two cameras marketed towards the film making market.
 
Hard to do an all camera test - what parameters do you keep the same to ensure "fairness" ? Unfortunately, the only tests that are remotely fair are resolution charts, stouffer wedges for DR etc. Terribly boring, but pretty fair.

Graeme
 
resolution is one thing.. but i think dr is my new motivator.
After 3.5k, why do I need more resolution for my basic feature film?

obviously 4k and up is great for CGI work, but for my basic (little miss sunshine) or (superbad) movie, why keep upping the anti on resolution?
what is the expected range on EPIC/SCARLET/ RED ONE SENSOR UPGRADE?
 
As much as I'd like to predict what you'll get and spill the beans on what I've seen so far, I reckon that such posts will come when Jim is ready, and not before.

As for why more resolution that what we have now - because someone will go out and make something that looks like Sound of Music and that resolution will pay dividends to the final visuals you see in the cinema.

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
As much as I'd like to predict what you'll get and spill the beans on what I've seen so far, I reckon that such posts will come when Jim is ready, and not before.
Click to expand...

anxiously awaiting
Im sure we wont be disappointed (reading between your lines)
 
I'd never read between my lines as I'm known to be subversive.

Graeme
 
Is there a compelling argument for 4K or higher resolution acquisition? I think there is, even if the final viewing is 2K/1080, due to the clear benefits of oversampling.

Is there a compelling argument for 4K DI? I do think that working in post with more data both in bit depth and resolution provides the artist with more control. Mattes with smoother edges. Genuine high frequency detail. More dynamic image control options with more refined adjustments. Etc.
When 4K DI is the cost of 2K DI today I think it will replace it. If there is NO cost premium, then having a better master is an easy call to enhance the long term value of the asset.

4K display? (Assuming a well prepared 4K source) For large screen projection viewers in the first 8 to 20 rows (depending on screen size, row spacing, etc) I think anyone with good vision will have their experience enhanced.

On a closely related note, in my experience, 4K digitally projected images that have no gate weave and minimal flicker will reveal the massive amount of motion blur in 24fps material. I estimate that 60fps at 4K will provide the "looking out the window" experience, can't wait to see if I'm right. (Yes, I realize that it might not "feel cinematic")

Cheers - #19
 
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