Other 4K digital cinema cameras

[Yousuf Abbasi]

I've seen a few other digital cinema cameras such as Phantom HD that can record 4K, but what other cameras out there can do 4K, various frame rates, interch. lens/mounts?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

There was Dalsa - aquired by Arri...
And Arri comes with their new D-XXX cams...

Interchangeable lens mounts from the factory...
SI. But that's obviously 2k.

Then there's that German cam that keeps pop'ing up. And Fuji (or JVC) (?) has something cookin'.

But... Dunno. Really.

I cannot really see any real competitor to the RED mixed market of "HVX" users and "Film shooters" that gives RED the neccesary volume for their pricing...

 

[Graeme Nattress]

The Dalsa / Arri deal didn't happen. Arri didn't buy Dalsa. Dalsa is dead. May it rest in peace.

Arri are doing 3k and 3.5k in their future. RED is already at 4.5k and moving forwards.

Graeme

 

[Imran Farouk]

JVC are doing a 4K

 

[Yousuf Abbasi]

This Phantom HD camera (link) is interesting... 65mm sensor with 4096x2440 max rez (large photosites?), 14-bit sensor depth, 144fps at 4K, flash memory hot-swapping... no idea what price is.

I'm assuming since bit depth is 14, that it records true RGB (4:4:4), but not sure. Looks interesting.....

 

[Tom Lowe]

One could argue, I suppose, that the Genesis is essentially a 5K or 6K camera (5760x2160) that downsamples to 1080p output. It's not Bayer CMOS, though.

 

[Petr Dvorak]

Kinetta :emote_couch::ihih:

 

[Graeme Nattress]

You could argue that But fact is, it doesn't measure anywhere remotely near that resolution. I'd still like to point one at my zone plate though, to see what it actually does measure.

There's also the big NHK 8k R&D camera that gets shown at NAB.

Graeme

 

[Erik Widding]

I'd still like to point one at my zone plate though, to see what it actually does measure.

Graeme, what do you use for a zone plate? ... make, model, cost?

 

[Graeme Nattress]

It's a custom job I had designed for me. We have one down at the RED office and one here. They're rather large... But a fantastic diagnostic tool.

Graeme

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

JVC are doing a 4K

But when? They have been showing prototypes of their system since early '07, maybe even before, and yet there is no product available yet.

NHK Tokyo is also developing their Ultra HiVision system. Very high resolution, but other than that it's not that special and the camera system is a huge beast, even after being downsized earlier this year.

 

[Tom Lowe]

I have a feeling that over the next 12 months or so, everyone and his brother are going to be announcing 4K or other large-sensor cameras.

 

[M Most]

You could argue that But fact is, it doesn't measure anywhere remotely near that resolution.

One could also say that the Red doesn't, either. As a matter of fact, you have said that.

I would offer the opinion that one reason other manufacturers - Arri and Panavision in particular - haven't done "4K" units is because they feel that it's overkill given standard distribution formats. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with that, but if you take into account that feature distribution is done primarily in the form of HD video and 2K DI's that become 2K DCP's and film prints, there is some validity to that view. Not to mention that outside of RedUser, there is a general feeling that resolution isn't everything.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

That's just like saying 35mm was overkill for SD TV production delivery though. But there's always benefits in going overkill, even for web delivery. Resolution isn't everything - just go look at a NHK NAB demonstration of their 8k camera to see that. However, resolution is necessary - nobody wants to watch a blocky pixelly mess even if it has no noise. I can understand why A & P may think that 2k DI and projection is sortagoodenuff, but I don't agree with them Indeed, if you're going to go with 2kDI and projection, I'd practically insist that downsampling from a much higher resolution to create the 2k is essential to get the best looking projection. Now that's what Arri are doing with their 3K camera - to get a nice downsample to 2k - a very valid approach - or a raw mode to get at the 3k should you need that.

As for measuring "remotely near" - there's a vast difference to ~80% compared to ~33%. The first number is near, but the second number is not remotely near. We also know the first number is not corrupted by nasty aliases. We don't know the status of the second number with respect to aliases as to my knowledge, there has been no published chart, whereas there has for the first number.

Graeme

 

[Tom Lowe]

I would offer the opinion that one reason other manufacturers - Arri and Panavision in particular - haven't done "4K" units is because they feel that it's overkill given standard distribution formats. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with that, but if you take into account that feature distribution is done primarily in the form of HD video and 2K DI's that become 2K DCP's and film prints, there is some validity to that view. Not to mention that outside of RedUser, there is a general feeling that resolution isn't everything.

Who is going to provide 4K content for the thousands of 4K projectors on their way to US theater chains?

 

[M Most]

Who is going to provide 4K content for the thousands of 4K projectors on their way to US theater chains?

A 4K projector doesn't require 4K source material, just as 4K source material doesn't require 4K finishing. All existing and future 4K projectors do a very nice job of projecting 2K material. In fact, 90% of what you see in a "4K" theater is 2K material. And I would also venture to say that the audience can rarely, if ever, tell the difference in an "average" sized theater.

I would, however, point out that in my previous post, I did say that "I don't necessarily agree" that 4K origination is overkill. But I DO agree with the statement that resolution isn't everything, as Graeme clearly does as well.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Of course, most of the audience can't tell an SD broadcast on an HD telly either, but that doesn't mean we should just make TV in SD. Surely movies are not made for the general audience anyway, just fellow movie makers??

We can look at it like this:

Good resolution is necessary, but not sufficient for a great image

There are other factors that make up good image quality too. We're certainly not ignoring those other factors by any means.

Graeme

 

[Tom Lowe]

Anyone who thinks 4K projectors are going to keep on projecting 2K material forever is wrong, IMO.

People know what "THX" is, they know what "1080p" is, they know what "megapixels" are, and soon enough they will know what "4K" is.

 

[Bill Anderson]

4K is far from overkill. Overkill claims might be relevant
when the means to do 4K justice are lacking- but the means
won't always be lacking. Keep moving up. Bigger bigger.
Take us to an 8X10 inch sensor if you can. Even if it means
dumbing down, it will provide mind blowing advantages and quality.
As Graeme said, resolution isn't everything, but it is a heck of a lot,
particularly when perfectly integrated with "everything else".
Who cares what Joe Blow can or can't see on the screen?
besides, this argument is fallacious. Have you ever heard
of an artist limiting his performance, his vision, because
Joe can't tell the difference? And Joe's way sharper
than (S)he's often given credit for. IF that's your mantra, good luck.

Why is Epic/monstro in the works? Hopefully, new technology will open up means of displaying this self expression. Like Marshall McLuhan said: THE MEDIUM IS THE MESSAGE.

 

[Juan Baranchuk]

You could argue that But fact is, it doesn't measure anywhere remotely near that resolution. I'd still like to point one at my zone plate though, to see what it actually does measure.

There's also the big NHK 8k R&D camera that gets shown at NAB.

Graeme

So, you never test the Genesis and compare it with your RED ONE?!!!

(Waiting impatiently for Scarlet 2/3 with lenses and zoom)