One thing may Separate Epic from Scarlet

[Jay A. Kelley]

RED sees Epic as their "pro" cameras (As per Jim long ago). Scarlets are their...uh... "Less than pro" cameras.

That said, you may see differences in the service plans that RED will offer. Epics may enjoy faster turnarounds, loaners, etc that Scarlets will not.

This would make a difference.

Jay

 

[Tom Lowe]

One thing I don't understand: If people are afraid that Epic does not offer enough value over a FF35 Scarlet, why do they want Epic? Why not sell R1 for $16K and pick up a FF Scarlet?

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

One thing I don't understand: If people are afraid that Epic does not offer enough value over a FF35 Scarlet, why do they want Epic? Why not sell R1 for $16K and pick up a FF Scarlet?

who will buy r1 in case the epic doesnt offer enough value?

i guess i just keep the r1 and buy s-ff35

 

[Tom Lowe]

who will buy r1 in case the epic doesnt offer enough value?

i guess i just keep the r1 and buy s-ff35

rental houses? production companies? i always thought of Epic as a camera that would appeal very much to rental houses and big players in the entertainment industry. it's a no-holds-barred camera for companies that don't care about money that much. i don't think it was ever intended for guys trying to scrape a living off it.

i think some people around here should be careful not to ask jim to disable too many features on scarlet FF35... because they might find themselves owning one in a year and wishing they hadn't!

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

rental houses? production companies? i always thought of Epic as a camera that would appeal very much to rental houses and big players in the entertainment industry. it's a no-holds-barred camera for companies that don't care about money that much. i don't think it was ever intended for guys trying to scrape a living off it.

i think some people around here should be careful not to ask jim to disable too many features on scarlet FF35... because they might find themselves owning one in a year and wishing they hadn't!

yep--the more features on scarlet the better.

 

[Joseph Ward]

yep--the more features on scarlet the better.

I agree with always wanting more and for less $, but Jim said last night or this morning, that they did all that they can do unless we want to wait another year.

We have now passed the point where we can do more. Having come to that realization puts me at ease. I hope the board feels the same way.

Jim

We listened and made huge investments to be able to satisfy 99% of what customers wanted and what we originally set out to accomplish. Would you like us to rework the whole program again? Can you wait another year? You have seen the best we can do. I sincerely hope that is good enough.

Jim

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jay,

All due respect here, but I don't think RED looks at their own products that way, not after the recent changes and direction they have taken with the DSMC system. To them Scarlet is completely professional. Not "less than pro". I doubt Jim, or anyone at RED, is going to value an EPIC customer over a Scarlet customer. Every camera has it's own set of advantages and purpose to fill, just as every camera owner, operator, etc.. has their own place or niche in the market. Every Scarlet owner is a potential future EPIC customer, etc..

That said, I will agree that you may be on to something though... There is a chance that RED may offer various support packages or warranty programs to go along with these cameras and there may be a higher level of service included with some products, but I kind of doubt it. I think if a certain warranty or service program is offered for one, it will be available for all. ...Just my take on it.

As for everyone else stressing over whether EPIC will provide enough value for the cost... Are these people INSANE??? All I have to say to these people is this: Go read the specs of the EPIC FF35 to to yourselves slowly, 5 times or more, think about it. What camera system currently provides those features? At any cost? The equivalent of 3-perf or even 4-perf 35mm, full vertical resolution coverage for anamorphic glass, 250fps @ 3K, 350fps @ 2K, and more... If these are features that do not interest you, then you obviously don't need that brain. However, if any one of those features interest you or would be of use to you in regular use of the camera, then the value becomes immediately apparent. And considering what the other guys are selling in that price range, buying the EPIC is a no-brainer. (horrible pun not intended).

I can see where a lot of current RED owners may be conflicted about Scarlet vs. the EPIC X upgrade. There are a lot of RED owners who bought into RED because they liked the concept and the camera fit into their budget, or they thought it did. But I know of several RED One owners who find the camera to be too much for their every day needs and moving to a Scarlet is probably a more sensible direction for them. They see the EPIC X upgrade as a great deal and nice reward for being a RED One owner, but it's not the direction that makes sense for them.

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

What does "pro" mean actually?

The 2/3"-I Scarlet will have:

- Interchangeable lenses. Multiple lens-mount options. [Thanks Jim !!!].
- 3K sensor, giving 2K+ resolved resolution [+75 % real color information at 2k].
- Professional high-quality recording codec.
- Progressive recording only.
- Variable framerates [at full rez]. 1-120 fps + 150fps burst.
- Professional monitoring options and outputs.
- All kinds of recording media possible.

Where's the un-pro side of all this? It's a dream-cam, IMO.

Epics are just larger-format pro cams.

***

Just my 2K [resolved].

 

[Zack Birlew]

Big difference between 1-30fps and 1-100fps. People who are suggesting that the Epic doesn't offer that much over a FF35 Scarlet obviously aren't creative enough to understand the difference and need to go read some introductory filmmaking books. Sure, I could film everything in 24fps but what if I want a slow motion shot? 30fps isn't slow enough to fully capture the emotion of that turn around look the actress is giving. 60fps would be better, 100fps ideal, maybe more just to see. 24fps isn't the end all be all frame rate people, you need to be able to go faster so you can get slow motion and other effects. Otherwise, what are you going to do? Interpolate the 24 frames in post? Yeah, let me know how that goes.

Now, can I afford an Epic? No. I can hardly afford a bare minimum RED One setup using Nikon lenses. Could I afford a FF35 Scarlet? Yeah, definitely, and with a little extra room for that special effects lens I've been eyeing or maybe an anamorphic LOMO. But I would still understand the difference between the higher end model that I would be giving up and the low end model I would be settling with.

Also, I wouldn't want RED to try and do the whole multi-level service plans thing. That stuff just doesn't work and it would make them look cheap too. There is still the wild card here that has yet to be played, accessories. Who knows if there will be a certain set of accessories that will be Epic-only? The medium format lenses are only for Epic and so are the panoramic lenses. Maybe the Epic will use a different recording format or, ooh this would be good, maybe the Epic will have an option for the fiber optic connection that was scrapped early on with the RED One. You don't know what will happen from now until next Fall, the whole Epic and Scarlet lineups could be changed all over again or they could be delayed or, we wish, pushed up to come out sooner. Anything can change.

 

[Chris Kenny]

rental houses? production companies? i always thought of Epic as a camera that would appeal very much to rental houses and big players in the entertainment industry. it's a no-holds-barred camera for companies that don't care about money that much. i don't think it was ever intended for guys trying to scrape a living off it.

I think one reason Red One customers are so concerned about how much value Epic adds is because if the Epic X offer stays on the table, and no Scarlet-related offers join it, they're going to end up being Epic owners even though if they were buying their first Red cameras, they'd probably have picked Scarlet models. It's sort of... awkward... that there's a great upgrade path from the Red One to the Epic X, but not to the S35 or FF35 Scarlet models. The Epic isn't quite designed for the same market space that many of the Red One's customers are in.

Now, obviously Red can't offer a $17,500 credit + some free stuff if you're trading your Red One in for a $7K or $10K brain rather than a $28K brain. But I think a lot of people would be very reassured by some kind of official upgrade offer with a specific cost. "Sell the Red One for whatever it happens to be worth in 12-18 months and buy a Scarlet" is hard to plan around, and expenses like this need to be planned well in advance, for little guys.

Trading in the Red One and wiring $10,500 gets you an Epic X. If Red offered a deal where you could trade in your Red One for an FF35 Scarlet bundle (the brain plus the same modules that ship with the Epic X) for, say, $5000.... Now, if we assume the bundled modules are worth $3K, this would only be a credit of about $8000 on the Red One, vs. $20,500 with the Epic X. There's a fair chance the Red One will still sell for more than $8000 by the time the FF35 Scarlet is shipping, in which case nobody would take the deal. But offering such a deal would allow people to plan around it as a known cost, whereas without such a deal, if someone currently has a Red One and wants to eventually end up with an FF35 Scarlet, there's no way to figure out what that will end up costing.

 

[J. Eric Camp]

I don't think anyone I have read the post of doesn't see the value in the EPIC's namely the FF35 with the monstro sensor. This isn't about these cameras versus an F23 or HVX. That game is pretty much OVER.

This is about S-FF35 on E-FF35 action. I believe people see the value in the E-FF35 but are afraid that clients will not.

I am very excited about the whole line up. The more I have thought about it, I think that this will provide more of a divide in the market than I originally thought.

 

[Michael Hastings]

it's a no-holds-barred camera for companies that don't care about money that much. i don't think it was ever intended for guys trying to scrape a living off it.

I don't get this, 15 years ago $40000 (about $60K in today's) was the entry price for a standard def Betacam and thousands of owner/operators were able to scrape a living off it.

You can put a good package together with an Epic S35, and high quality Canon L series lenses and a Birger or RED smart mount for well under $40K. A lease for that amount and insurance is about $1K a month or $12K a year. If you can't generate enough to cover that $12K and a decent living in a year you really ought to consider another profession.

I'm not saying you shouldn't consider a cheaper Scarlet if it fits your budget and needs better, but I hardly think Epic is out of range for any reasonably busy professional.

 

[Larry McKee]

Yep, my Betacam paid for itself in no time. And the income I have generated with my RED is way ahead of the payments.

I don't get all the expectations for freebies from RED. They have been a lot more generous that any other camera company I have ever bought from. I didn't get any offer from Sony to buy back my Betacam if I wanted to upgrade to DigiBeta of HDcam. Panasonic didn't buy back my DVX100 when I bought an HVX200.

I couldn't be happier with RED's pricing and customer service.

 

[Nik Manning]

I think it is a pretty simple equation. If you shot with prosumer cameras before Red One came out then buy a scarlet. If you shot with more high end equipment then buy an Epic. Red One was middle ground now there is a line drawn in the sand. The scarlet workflow should be faster and cheaper when considering the data rates.
If you are shooting Clerks 2 then Scarlet. Star Wars 2 then Epic.

 

[Joseph Ward]

I wish the only thing that separated Scarlet from Epic would just be prices and frame rates? That doesn't look like that would happen though. That would mean that people would have to base everything on their wallet and their skill.

Scarlet S35- 5K @30fps $9,750
Epic X/Epic S35- 5K @100fps $28,000
Scarlet FF35- 6K @30fps $7,000
Epic FF35-6K @100fps $33,000