Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

One RPP vs. Nikon Prime Set

B

Brian Wicens

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Messages
21
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Between the two, if given the choice, which would you?

To clarify, given budget would allow the purchase of either a single Red Pro Prime or 5-6 Nikon Prime lenses, both used.


While the diversity of multiple primes seems like a clear winner, the quality of a RPP seems like a good base opportunity.

Also, if you could only use a single prime RPP, which would you choose as your "all-around" shooter?
 
Certainly depends on what you're shooting...

I would have no problem shooting a short film on a 35mm RPP only. (Or 25... or 50... depending on the project.) I would prefer this to a set of Nikons, in most cases.
There are plenty examples of feature films shot on a single focal length.

On the other hand, a set of Nikon's is obviously more flexible, and the 5 or 6 of them probably weigh less than the single RPP.
 
I agree with Nils, depends on what you are doing. Though you can shoot a lot with one prime, you are limited. The Nikkors at least give you flexibility to start with. If you have clients that need range from you, get the Nikkors. If you want to start to build a set of RPP's piece by piece, then get the RPP.
 
If you can only afford one good lens, I would recommend a ZOOM.

If I could only choose one prime, I would go insane... It so much depends on what you are shooting, there is no one focal length to rule them all. The 50mm would probably be THE ONE if I could only pick just one. It's good for portraits and general use. When outdoors you can usually find enough space and distance to make it work for most things. It's not so good for landscape shots, then again, unless there's a lot of motion, you can always stitch multiple shots together. Then again, that's no MY style. I tend to be less traditional with my photography and I prefer wide angles, and longer telephoto shots for more ordinary shots where mid-range focal lengths are typically used.

The 50mm and longer lenses in the RPP set are quite a bit smaller and lighter than the 18, 25 and 35.


Anyway, to be perfectly honest here, I would get the set of Nikon primes. However, you're not saving much money over the RPP's. All the best Nikkor primes are $1000 to $2200 anyway! If your budget is realistically one RPP, then you're looking at probably two Nikkor primes. As far as the Nikkor primes go, they breathe more and have terribly short focus throws or barrel rotation -- compared to cine lenses. All normal for SLR lenses. And the optics are great! The Nikkor F1.4 G series primes for the 24, 50 and 85 are wonderful. If you were to combine that with the 105mm F2.8 Macro and the 14mm F2.8, you would be doing really well.

Right now is probably the best time all year to buy Nikon lenses -- if you're a USA customer that is. They're on sale with mail-in rebates through all the big dealers like B&H, Amazon, Adorama, etc...
 
Have you considered getting an old Angie zoom? I am basically in the same boat as you. Scarlet owner, no glass, shoots on my friends Nikkors. I have a lot of trouble deciding what glass to get myself. Since I don't have any its hard for me to want to jump in bed with DSLR glass.

Basically my choices are as follows

Rokinon if you want to be cheap. Its already modded to work with follow focus

ZF zeiss, just like Nikkors but at least its the same brand as the CP2s, Masters, Ultras. These aren't particularly cheap.

Zeiss CP2's: expensive as hell, probably buy one lens at a time

Red Pro Primes, discontinued, can't get a full set. Not sure if they would get me lens rentals (but neither would any DSLR glass anyway)

Old zoom (IE ANGIE) kind of worried about getting it from abroad. Would probably buy local and pay more to test it.


So essentially same boat as you. For now I wait, use Nikkors. Eventually I will probably get the cash for cine glass and hopefully skip the DSLR BS. But what worries me is being ready for the Dragon, so for now I spend nothing and save money up. Without knowing the price point of my scarlet upgrade or the timing until I have a good 20k or more set aside I am going to delay buying glass.

PS you can always rent pretty cheap, if your doing paid work consider this as a stop gap. Plus you can see what glass you like and why. Realistically the mechanics are so bad on DSLR your better off avoiding it if you can. If you don't mind losing light/slower glass get a zoom. It might not be as good optically speaking but it will cover you more focal lengths until you can afford primes. Red has a BT zoom for 6k only... You can also lease glass from say Abelcine or somewhere along those lines. Just don't get in over your head for the Master Primes unless you have the work behind you.

Personally I am in LOVE with the new Schnieder Xenar 3 promo video. They don't breathe and are less then half the price of Master Primes or Leicas! Now that is just amazing. A DP I worked under advised me against it, says they'll never rent. Too bad they look frickin awesome!!!

So in conclusion, really weigh the benefits of the glass. You want good mechanics and something that will rent with your kit. No point in owning glass if it sits on the shelf and your camera always goes out with rental house glass on it. Unless this is for your own personal film stuff, in which case you can go real cheapo if you don't mind breathing and short focus throws. Personally they are kind of a PIA for me when it comes to doing work. Nikkors are dirt cheap and typically lose light on zooms, lose focus, super breathing. I work with them for now, but I relish the day I can have legitimate glass
 
Last edited:
Brian Merlen said:
Personally I am in LOVE with the new Schnieder Xenar 3 promo video. They don't breathe and are less then half the price of Master Primes or Leicas!
Click to expand...

LOL!!! ...Don't breathe. I've got a bridge for sale if you're interested too.


OK, in all seriousness, didn't we just have this discussion around here somewhere? All lenses breathe, it's just a matter of how much. The Xenar3's do look like they control breathing very well, at least from what I've seen of them. I have not got my hands on them to test for myself. At any rate, they look like good glass. For the price though, I think I would prefer Ultras, especially if I were going to be renting them out. You'll get 3X the rental traffic with the Zeiss label. Just sayin' Price-wise they're between the CP.2's and Ultras, so they're an attractive set either way. For a personal set not looking for rentals, I may opt for the Xenar3's over the Ultras... I guess I would have to try them first to see for sure. Highly recommended -- try lenses before you buy them.

I think if I were shopping for a practical set of primes to own right now, a full set of RPP's are still a great buy when you can get your hands on them. The mini-S4's (/i Panchros) are superb and also priced aggressively. I would take those any day over the CP.2's. I still really like the CP.2 mechanics and overall design. However, they do have some serious issues with consistency across the set -- and now that they have a world-class 15mm offering, we can forget about that 18mm turd of theirs. All things considered, the CP.2's are more popular than they probably should be, although they keep getting better as they add more lens choices to the set. IMO, the biggest advantage to the CP.2's is coverage. They will cover FF35 in most cases, some of the lenses don't, but most do. All of them will cover the upcoming Dragon sensor without a hitch. Not so sure when it comes to the mini-S4's. The RPP's should all cover except for the 18mm.
 
What lens mount do you currently own? If it's not the PL mount, you have to tack on another $500 (third party) or $1500 (for used RED PL.) Conversely, if you have a PL mount, you're going to need to convert the nikkors or buy a nikon mount ($700.) Worth mentioning if money is tight.

Also, who is pulling focus? Do you have an dedicated guy or are you going to be doing it yourself? If you're doing it yourself, unless your camera is always locked off, it'd probably be easier with stills glass (doubly so if your go handheld). There's also the versatility of stills glass -- not just in focal lengths, but in weight and size. You don't need lens support, and the camera profile isn't much bigger than a hasselbald. Plus autofocus and minimum focus distance... Might not sound all that pro, but when you're in the trenches that kind of stuff can save your ass.

If I were me, I'd get a used stills zoom (assuming you currently have a nikon or EOS mount) like the 24-70 (used for like $1k), in order to hold me over until I could afford an entire set of proper Cine glass. I mean, even if it's a minimal set - 18, 35, 85 - it's going to be over $7.5k used for a contemporary set of cine lenses. You could go cheaper vintage glass, but it won't be objectively better than stills glass (focus rotation will be better, but mechanically, resolving power, breathing, etc. could be an issue.)
 
Last edited:
Mike P. said:
What lens mount do you currently own? If it's not the PL mount, you have to tack on another $500 (third party) or $1500 (for used RED PL.) Conversely, if you have a PL mount, you're going to need to convert the nikkors or buy a nikon mount ($700.) Worth mentioning if money is tight.

Also, who is pulling focus? Do you have an dedicated guy or are you going to be doing it yourself? If you're doing it yourself, unless your camera is always locked off, it'd probably be easier with stills glass (doubly so if your go handheld). There's also the versatility of stills glass -- not just in focal lengths, but in weight and size. You don't need lens support, and the camera profile isn't much bigger than a hasselbald. Plus autofocus and minimum focus distance... Might not sound all that pro, but when you're in the trenches that kind of stuff can save your ass.

If I were me, I'd get a used stills zoom (assuming you currently have a nikon or EOS mount) like the 24-70 (used for like $1k), in order to hold me over until I could afford an entire set of proper Cine glass. I mean, even if it's a minimal set - 18, 35, 85 - it's going to be over $7.5k used for a contemporary set of cine lenses. You could go cheaper vintage glass, but it won't be objectively better than stills glass (focus rotation will be better, but mechanically, resolving power, breathing, etc. could be an issue.)
Click to expand...

I'm kind of in your boat. I work in promo, and my shoots need VARIETY. For a real bargain, I've built a fully cinemodded Contax Zeiss stills set (w/ one Standard Prime) that goes from 16mm to 135mm all at T2, includes two 1:1 Macros, and also has a 180 and a 300. Except for the Standard, they all cover Dragon and beyond (they are full frame).

The variety across this collection was worth more to me than the efficiency of a couple of PL mounted lenses.

That being said, my work mostly involves interviews, portraits and b-roll, where stills glass excels. If I was working in demanding narrative I'd be singing a different tune.

PS - also to your point, our shoots are often smaller footprint, so the smaller size and operability of stills glass is a tangible plus as well.
 
Last edited:
I remember when I only worked with rented cine lenses - 'cause no one (an overstatement, but you get my drift) owned 35 cine glass. But now we all have so much choice.

As someone who owns a couple PL zooms (the RED's) and a full set of RPP's; I'd have to say look at getting a zoom to start. I hardly ever use mine, because I have the full set of primes, but I don't think I could be restricted to just one length all the time. ( having said that I've shot in studio the last three days and only used an 85mm, nothing else)

Also, as much as I like my RPP's - haven't they been discontinued? If they indeed have been discontinued, you'll have a tough time building a set. Better to put your cash somewhere else..
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
LOL!!! ...Don't breathe. I've got a bridge for sale if you're interested too.


OK, in all seriousness, didn't we just have this discussion around here somewhere? All lenses breathe, it's just a matter of how much. The Xenar3's do look like they control breathing very well, at least from what I've seen of them. I have not got my hands on them to test for myself. At any rate, they look like good glass. For the price though, I think I would prefer Ultras, especially if I were going to be renting them out. You'll get 3X the rental traffic with the Zeiss label. Just sayin' Price-wise they're between the CP.2's and Ultras, so they're an attractive set either way. For a personal set not looking for rentals, I may opt for the Xenar3's over the Ultras... I guess I would have to try them first to see for sure. Highly recommended -- try lenses before you buy them.

I think if I were shopping for a practical set of primes to own right now, a full set of RPP's are still a great buy when you can get your hands on them. The mini-S4's (/i Panchros) are superb and also priced aggressively. I would take those any day over the CP.2's. I still really like the CP.2 mechanics and overall design. However, they do have some serious issues with consistency across the set -- and now that they have a world-class 15mm offering, we can forget about that 18mm turd of theirs. All things considered, the CP.2's are more popular than they probably should be, although they keep getting better as they add more lens choices to the set. IMO, the biggest advantage to the CP.2's is coverage. They will cover FF35 in most cases, some of the lenses don't, but most do. All of them will cover the upcoming Dragon sensor without a hitch. Not so sure when it comes to the mini-S4's. The RPP's should all cover except for the 18mm.
Click to expand...


The Leica C primes I used recently did not breathe at all, only used the 50,75 & 100.
 
Stephen Williams said:
The Leica C primes I used recently did not breathe at all, only used the 50,75 & 100.
Click to expand...

Hmmm... Perhaps your definition of breathing differs from mine. The Leica C's do an amazing job at controlling breathing and they have no apparent distortion throughout their focus range. But there is a slight breathe to them, you can see it in the out of focus areas, highlight bokeh especially.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that all lenses breathe, or go through serious steps and control methods to optically mitigate the effect. I have yet to personally get my hands on any lens that, to my eyes, completely eliminates the effect. I can't tell from the one rack zoom they had in the Xenar3 video, but there's something about that shot that doesn't "feel" right to me. Can't judge it until I get my hands on the lenses myself. Could be like what we see with some other lenses out there that have greatly minimized breathing in that even though the breathing effect is all but gone, they have a mechanical rigidness (for lack of a better way to explain it) to their focus curve. Where you can almost see an optical constriction or corrective distortion kick in. To me, it just looks and feels wrong...

That said, and you can google my posts if you want to verify as I've said it numerous times, I think the emphasis often put on breathing with lenses is too great. There are a great many aspects to a lens and the image it produces which matter more to me than whether or not the lens breathes. The Xenar iii's look like great lenses. Actually the 18 blade aperture is probably the most intriguing attribute to these lenses for me. Hopefully I'll get a chance to test drive them myself soon. I didn't get my hands on a set of Leica C's until a shoot right at the end of last year.
 
Firstly, I would like to thank all of you for expressing some invaluable knowledge to a first time poster, it means a lot.

Second, I should explain my position a bit further for better clarity; I am the owner of a Red One MX; PL Mount, Nikon Mount & Birger Mount. This will be used handheld and on sticks.

I've shot on a 5DMKII for the past few years, somewhat blasphemous, but it brought me to this point - had it rigged in multiple configurations, use of a follow focus when needed.

From that, I have a small assortment of trusted lenses; Rokinon 8mm 1:3.5, Canon L 24-70 F4, Leica 35 2.8 & 50 F4 Flektogon's, Nikkor 70-210 3.5, and a couple of other kickers I can try (Lensbaby, Takumar), but have no real expression of hope for quality out of.

The kit will not be rented, as far as I'm concerned. It was purchased with personal endeavors in mind, and hopefully, some sense of fulfillment.

Reason behind this song and dance is to find a "go-to" lens I can accomplish quality shots from, something that rivals cinema, yet has to be proved by touch. I suppose I'm leaning toward an RPP as they're tried in the field, and it makes the most sense within budget constraints. The ideation behind it, to expand on my fundamental practice of film; working with restrictions to achieve the best possible picture.


With the aforementioned, to answer some questions...

@Nils, there will be some variety in my content; shorts mostly, action oriented, moving objects, and dialogue. The reason I look for a singular lens would be to cover the majority of my "quality control", everything else could be shunted off with the use of other lenses in my kit, in theory.

@Nick, I was looking at a piece by piece build of RPP's as it seemed to be the most logical in protecting the pocket...knowingly, this process would take more time.

@Jeff, the Nikkor's I was looking at, for the lack of a better term, are old. (pardon my less than savvy expression) I'm finding 5-6 piece sets for approximately $2500, some, Cine-modded. Clearly, these are nowhere near the quality of the G series, hence my
questioning toward purchasing a "grind" kit for the time being. I've also spotted a 50mm RPP within that price range, and my head was dipping between that and a 35mm.

@Brian, as far as my knowledge on Angenieux, every time I note a post, it comes out to the equivalent of a down payment on a home! Although, if something falls with the mentioned budget, it may be worth the look. The Rokinon's make me feel as if I'm cheating myself - although I have played with the idea of picking up the 85mm, I may want to reserve my dollars toward other lenses in the long run. I have come across some ZF.2's for a reasonable price, however, just about double of what I was looking toward. CP's, I keep dreaming. After dealing with the DSLR BS for so long, I feel it's necessary that I pair my camera with at least ONE decent lens, if not that, a set that exceeds my current setup.

@Mike, I have a R1-MX with PL, Nikon & Birger Mount; Rokinon 8mm 1:3.5, Canon L 24-70 F4, Leica 35 2.8 & 50 F4 Flektogon's, Nikkor 70-210 3.5 - I could only see focus being pulled initially by myself; small personal setups. Moving forward, there would be a dedicated focus puller on some shoots. I'd played with the idea of going full Canon, as the owner of a 5DMKII, it would prove to be useful cross platform...yet question the overall impact in the long run. That being said, perhaps the long run is where I need to get to before looking at putting down any finances towards Cine Lenses.

@Jordan, shameless self promotion! ;) But, a set I had been considering...
 
Last edited:
well if your working is leasing an option? that could open up your possibilities beyond your actual current standing figure assuming you have the potential income behind you? the angies i refer to are in the 3500 dollar range, real old school and beat up. a nyc rental house has one, as do some foreigners on ebay right now. somewhat apprehensive to use ebay though and will probably buy local. the nice thing is the range. if you don't mind slower glass for added focal lengths you can make great things happen whether you get a dslr zoom or a cine zoom. the bt red zoom for 6k being my high end option and the 3500ish angies being my low end one. i still might grab dslr primes for handheld though, the zooms weigh too much for some of the stuff i do and i want more mobility, so there are times that dslr glass makes sense for me form factor wise. as much as i'd like cine primes they just cost so much. the cp2s, cannons, or red pro primes are the only cheap cine glass you can really find is the reality. everything else is just even more money. i myself am 50 50 on if i grab a red pro prime, red zoom, or beat up angie.... the zooms seem like a good idea other then the mobility seems like a PIA. i might even go rpp myself, but where can i score something non 18 or 300 these days for like 3k or 3.5k used (like a 50mm to start?)?

http://www.red.com/store/products/red-pro-prime-18mm-t18-i-bt
 
ha, brian! yes mine have served me well, but im stepping up and buying a very expensive zoom that i much prefer working with on real jobs, ive had a few offers, one best offer on ebay that ill be accepting tomorrow morning, unless another comes in. if you are interested let me know as soon as you can because i might be able to sweeten the deal with some focus gears that i just received in the mail today that i was going put on those lenses. my price is far below what other full pkgs cost too, mainly because im not looking to make money, in fact it will be a loss. feel free to private message me.
 
I have both (nikon and rpp), I really like my RPP 35mm (and the 18mm I think is also an awesome buy right now), but I also like the feel of the nikon lenses (I really like shooting at f1.4). There is a recent shot on red post on nikon's shooting i think in india, that really shows off what can be done with nkon's. Lot of films are now done with nikons. Still I btw shoot mainly with the RPP's, the weight difference is huge though.
 
PatrickFaith said:
I have both (nikon and rpp), I really like my RPP 35mm (and the 18mm I think is also an awesome buy right now), but I also like the feel of the nikon lenses (I really like shooting at f1.4). There is a recent shot on red post on nikon's shooting i think in india, that really shows off what can be done with nkon's. Lot of films are now done with nikons. Still I btw shoot mainly with the RPP's, the weight difference is huge though.
Click to expand...
ugh, almost makes me not want to sell them now, after some tests with a client we decided to shoot a whole audi campaign on them, and its true, if i dont like a shot the director is forcing me to do, i put on the 35mm 1.4 and ND it all the way down, then i like it. the awesome flares you get help too. its also great just have such an extensive set to choose from. some jobs ill live on one or two focal lengths all day, but then others ill use each one and HAVE to. I also have an almost brand new, still in the pkg, macro 55mm with an extension tube, which i love, it gets the shot you think is impossible, i was thinking about keeping this one, but for a reduser, if it sweetens the deal i might throw it in too.
 
and brian, if you are close to LA you are welcome to come test them out.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top