On Set Requirements?

[Imran Farouk]

Hi All!

Firstly before I start, gotta say thanks to all for the help you all have given in the past with advice and understanding of productions, so I'm here again with a new issue

I'm currently talking with a director right now to do a short film, 3 minutes long. The issue i've run into and it's been running through my mind is the requirements of what should be on set. I'm essentially funding the project but I'm trying to cut cost where possible, now I haven't been on a ton of professional movie sets but thankfully most, if not all, of you have been on them and practically live on them a majority of your time.

The short takes place indoors in a factory/abandoned building, it'll be shot during the day, 3 day shoot, 3 locations. All day light. Shooting on EPIC and Scarlet.
Problem comes in when I'm trying to cut cost on lighting, whats necessary, I don't think its necessary for this purely on the fact that you can get away with a bit on the EPIC and having seen the girlfriend experience im inclined to think indoors during the day isn't so bad. Yeah lights are important but hiring a generator and lighting equipment in the UK is a tad expensive and it'd be nice to cut any weight on what isn't deemed needed. Is lighting required to be professional? To seem profesional? Would it be needed? At night I can't see it being possible to replicate the sun (probably gets dark starting at around 4/5pm when we do begin principle filming) since its around the 2nd or 3rd story and so getting lights shining through the windows would be damn near impossible on low budget.

Other thing is camera crew, focus puller, camera man and assist, is all three required? I'm not we need the focus puller without a doubt but I know a few indie productions that are trying to go zero budget that haven't had them and been fine. Apparently the camera man won't work without an assist either so all three. Meaning I might as well replicate that across both cameras. The crew is unpaid but thats rather beside the point since everything needs to be face pace as possible. I said yes in the end to this one only because they were coming in unpaid but I was curious as to if its required on an indie short film to have all three?

Radio headsets? Are these a MUST, I'm told they are but once again, short films I've heard from haven't used them as much or at all just due to budgetting. I'm curious if these are definitely required?
Mattebox and follow focus, these things I was suggested to rent from one of my mates, I have both but I dont think my RedRock will latch onto the L Glass

A lot of the things are being said required because its a first time director, its a major short for him and he wants to appear profesional. Have that level of 'production value' and not seem like a total amateur purely because of the favors his pulling in for crew. The thing being that I remember the debate about looking un-pro with no mattebox and curious if that even applies here, it just seems crazy to me as a lot of these costs seem to be able to be avoided. They purely appear to be for aesthetic reasons but hence why I'm asking...

What is required? What is actually NEEDED bare minimum, what speeds up the process, less crew or more? Is lighting needed? Is headsets, monitors, mattebox, follow focus, 3 man crew per camera...is all this really needed on a 3 minute short film? I mean even budgetting wise I originally thought 1,000 is enough for a 3 minute short and its gone up since we started because its supposedly not enough for locations, costume, vfx and so on. Its a vintage piece, world war 2. So I guess going vintage is costly but all this seems massively inflated...

So yeah, any input will be loved, experience and so on, on set or off, I don't mind just need some clarity...be nice to actually hear some ideas on budgeting and on set requirements

Thanks all, sorry for the long post, thought detail was best to understand the problem

 

[David W. Jones]

My thoughts... Maybe you should consider a hobby other than film making which would be a little better on you pocket book.

Want to cut costs? Drop the second unit camera and crew. You don't need a scarlet as a second camera unless you have some spectacular visual FX that you can't repeat and need shot from a different angle for the cut away. Pretty much everything else mentioned needs to be on set IMO. And you are moaning over a three man crew that is working for FREE? Seriously? Hopefully if the sound man wants to use a boom you will listen to him. Sure you could shoot without any of the items you mentioned if you really wanted to. You could also rent something less expensive than an Epic camera to shoot this. Sorry to be so rough on you, but it sounds like you may want to rethink this movie making thing.

All the Best!

Dave

 

[Imran Farouk]

Heh, I thought that too but I'm not looking to be a director, producer or anything of the sort in the industry, I actually work outside the industry, my spare cash goes into films for individuals I think its relatively worth investing in. HOWEVER, I am a business person, first and foremost so I look to cut costs, I look for whats required and what isn't if something can be done cheaper I want to know and I want to know the loss in quality. If I hear someone doing something a cheaper way, perhaps better and yet the quality suffered doesn't seem to be massive, in fact its on par with something expensive, I'd like to know how its done and why it can't be done for myself.

Long story short, lighting wise I have 2 x 350 and 1 x 750w. Both Scarlet and EPIC are my personal camera as well as the lenses that go with them and they are some what kitted out...not majorly but enough for a shooting package as well as the backend being covered, I would never have bought them if I knew I couldn't support the backend
Filmmaking is expensive I know but I also know that short films don't make money. Features is what generates cash flow back and so this is rather me chucking out 5 grand in USD. I accept any harsh comments, I understand that many have experience, naturally I dont, like I said, I like to come around but I dont live in the industry 24/7, hence my request for understanding and why I stick around on REDUser...
Harsh is cool and I get where your coming from,
5 grand on a short seems a bit crazy to me but I accepted it, though I ask my questions because there must be a way to bring down the bare minimum to where its a like a box but still moveable within that box, your not killing the air supply to creativity...

Like I said, I'm coming in from a business background that loves film and loves the people that make them, I'm stepping up now with EPIC and Scarlet to help out a few of my mates but money is always going to be an issue considering the current climate issues, doesn't mean I won't donate (invest would mean I get some form of money back...) just means I'd like to know the potential for cutting costs...

Yeah its free crew, as in, pay for their transport and food of course but in terms of on set, its unpaid work, its friendly favors on down days... I'm moaning over 3 man crew because I'm curious if that would slow the amount of set ups possible or increase the speed in them, since they have to co-ordinate...

its a dead simple short, nothing crazy...its one actor a day, final day both actors, 3 days. The time allowed for having natural sun light is short in the UK during the winter,I'm thinking March maybe hopefully 5/6pm the sun starts coming down hopefully not earlier than that.
The potential for lighting HMIs or any other lights through windows the 2nd or 3rd story of a building (since thats the only way right now I can imagine keeping up the continuity of sunlight effect through the windows) is of a crazy cost, including the generators that would need to run them
The Scarlet is on set because I have it hopefully by then and the director wants as much coverage as possible, I'm looking to finish in either 4K or 2K, more than likely 2K...

I'm not looking to unnecessarily kill costs, like I said, I have no issue if say everyone on here said 'you would need at bare minimum...' I'd go 'ok fine.done'.

Like i've said, business background here, the cost is what I care about, especially when there is no return. The joy of making films is good but its also a heartbreaker if every short I ever had to fund was 10 grand and it lasted 3 minutes...
If that was the case, the next recession would certainly nuke out a ton of investments into shorts. I'd hate to see that. So all I care about is trying to keep filmmaking alive for realistic costs, things have inflated I get that but there are things where people may go overkill, rent a 6K watt light when you could use 2 300w lights...or shoot in natural, no cost, no generator required...

I'm not being ridiculous like saying no to the soundman with the boom pole, i know thats required...

I'm thankful for your advice David, I understand the harshness, its just I want to know if something can be done faster, cheaper or whatever...there is a point when it begins to affect quality,yes i know, I want to go just before that point.

 

[Curran Giddens]

Not sure about the FF, but I'm sure you can get by with using the Redrock mattebox. Not as nice as an Arri but it gets the job done.

 

[George Butterfield]

Shooting on EPIC and Scarlet.

just go with one camera

Is lighting required to be professional? To seem professional? Would it be needed?

lights are important, draw storyboards for the shots or better yet have Director shoot them beforehand with a digital camera at the same time of day, then ask DoP/Director what lights are needed.

Other thing is camera crew, focus puller, camera man and assist, is all three required?

get the assistant to focus pull and work clapper etc.

Radio headsets? Are these a MUST, I'm told they are but once again, short films I've heard from haven't used them as much or at all just due to budgeting. I'm curious if these are definitely required?

what are the radio headsets for? I'd say you don't need them.

Matte box and follow focus,

You don't need a Matte box since you wont be using any kind of filter.

A lot of the things are being said required because its a first time director, its a major short for him and he wants to appear professional.

Instead just tell him to tell everyone that this is his first project and he will need everyone's help and co-operation.

I remember the debate about looking un-pro with no matte box

a matte box is not needed since you wont be using any filters no ND's etc so he would look stupid paying for it then not needing it.

What is required? What is actually NEEDED bare minimum, what speeds up the process, less crew or more? Is lighting needed? Is headsets, monitors, matte box, follow focus, 3 man crew per camera...is all this really needed on a 3 minute short film? I mean even budgeting wise I originally thought 1,000 is enough for a 3 minute short and its gone up since we started because its supposedly not enough for locations, costume, vfx and so on. Its a vintage piece, world war 2. So I guess going vintage is costly but all this seems massively inflated...

Rent a Panasonic HPX-170 for one day with the Operator ... shoot a practice version in a garage with the Actors, (or substitutes) no costumes. , use the "on camera" sound. The resultant "nudie" should make a profit and give you answers to some of your questions.

 

[Imran Farouk]

Thanks Curran,
Figured I'd love a Arri or RED Pro MB but considering I tend to try and travel light never got them and went for the cheaper option just for when it is needed, awesome though that the RedRock mb cuts it

George, wow thanks, exactly what I wanted to know, will definitely be doing a demo shoot a week prior,

In terms of the storyboarding with lights and so on,you mentioned digital camera shots with around the same time of day lighting that the short will be filmed, would this be digital shots on location?

Monitoring wise is another question I wanted to pose, Teradeking the EPIC so that it'd run on two iPads, one for D.o.P other for Director, would this be sufficient? I'm not sure but I have a Teradek decoder for use with the SmallHD, the thing I'm not sure with that is whether I can run 2 iPads and the SmallHD or one iPad and one smallHD, I assume D.o.Ps would prefer smallhd over an iPad

Thanks again guys, appreciate the honesty and insights

 

[George Butterfield]

In terms of the storyboarding with lights and so on,you mentioned digital camera shots with around the same time of day lighting that the short will be filmed, would this be digital shots on location?

If you set up some static shots on location at the required time of day you would get an idea of the lighting requirements. It has to be at the location to determine the lighting required for each specific shot.

Monitoring wise is another question I wanted to pose, Teradeking the EPIC so that it'd run on two iPads, one for D.o.P other for Director, would this be sufficient? I'm not sure but I have a Teradek decoder for use with the SmallHD, the thing I'm not sure with that is whether I can run 2 iPads and the SmallHD or one iPad and one smallHD, I assume D.o.Ps would prefer smallhd over an iPad

Thanks again guys, appreciate the honesty and insights

The director doesn't need a monitor, the DoP can use his viewfinder/LCD etc.

Seriously Imran, get a video camera that shoots onto miniDV and has onboard sound, go out and shoot something, get a feel for what's required. Check out the student films on mandy.com and see if you can observe, offer to bring them coffee or drive them to location etc. If you participate in a few shoots, just by observing you will get a feel for it. There are people who can shoot very amazing 3 minute videos for practically no cost, not counting their talent/knowledge etc.

 

[Paul Nordin]

Thanks Curran,
Figured I'd love a Arri or RED Pro MB but considering I tend to try and travel light never got them and went for the cheaper option just for when it is needed, awesome though that the RedRock mb cuts it

George, wow thanks, exactly what I wanted to know, will definitely be doing a demo shoot a week prior,

In terms of the storyboarding with lights and so on,you mentioned digital camera shots with around the same time of day lighting that the short will be filmed, would this be digital shots on location?

Monitoring wise is another question I wanted to pose, Teradeking the EPIC so that it'd run on two iPads, one for D.o.P other for Director, would this be sufficient? I'm not sure but I have a Teradek decoder for use with the SmallHD, the thing I'm not sure with that is whether I can run 2 iPads and the SmallHD or one iPad and one smallHD, I assume D.o.Ps would prefer smallhd over an iPad

Thanks again guys, appreciate the honesty and insights

I've got to say that for someone who keeps pounding the "I don't want to spend money on anything unnecessary" statement, you sure have spent a lot of money on questionable high-end gear. Why you would have purchased a teradek wireless monitor system, and then deprive your DP of the basic lighting tools he will need seems penny wise & pound foolish. If you have a good, experienced DP signed on to work for zero, you should heed every word he says about what he needs or doesn't need to film your short and deliver the directors vision. It's ludicrous for people here, with so little knowledge of the project to say what you need/don't need.
Walkies? Sure many shorts are made without them. But for some they are critical tools required to meet the production schedule for logistical reasons.
Mattebox? Where are your light sources relative to camera angles? Someone here said you don't need one without even knowing this basic info! Does your DP plan to use NDs to hold depth of field continuity as the light changes through the day? Or grads to deal with contrast? Or polarizers? It's bullshit for someone here to say weather or not you need one without having a clear understanding of the location, mood, shooting style, shot list, etc.

Trust your DP! Ask him what he needs and do everything in your power to supply it. Shooting with natural light only in interiors is very very challenging...if your goal is to make beautiful compositions.

 

[Imran Farouk]

Hi Paul,

Well what I wanted to know what was neccasry and what wasn't can it be done without lighting was one of those questions,

I have no issue dishing what is needed, thats not the problem, high end gear, sure why not, if the DP said he NEEDED an expensive lighting rig because REALLY there was no other way...then ok, down with that, its the arguments placed that I wanted to understand...

Problem with this is the DP isn't even picked yet because the director wants to keep it near silent till Jan/Feb, I'm trying to figure stuff out now before that comes around...

The details is the problem, I'd love to hand them out here but I'm tied down with pre-production rules, long story short, its in two interiors and one exterior which the exterior is smack in the middle of day with full light blaring in an open park,

So ok, natural light is difficult with interiors cool, understand, so lighting really is required for the interiors even with the sunlight outside,

The teradek and equipment were purchased a while back before this project was even in talks, the problem is that there is no 'generic one lighting set to rule them all' which I get but there is seemingly no 'this is the basic kit that will get you through most low budget things' either which is kinda the pain, most of the time I would happily pass the money along and see what comes out with, get zero involvement but last time I let that happen, a bit too much went into a one location shoot with a video that didn't exactly see the light of day or rather did but wasn't worth it.

Hence my trust in what is required and isn't is a bit flimsy.

Thanks, really appreciate the honesty

 

[Rob Gardner]

This is a great thread I think, because it highlights an issue that is emerging with the introduction of these (relatively) low cost large format cinema cameras, and that is the decline (or eventual decline) in the craft areas of filmmaking (including the day rates).

A feature was recently done in this city with a tiny crew and virtually no craft (focus pulling, lighting, professional actors, and so on). In some cases, scenes were shot entirely in the dark. And the film was sold, reviewed positively in the New York and national media, found an international distributor, was released in theaters in Europe, sold on DVD’s and so on.

Do you need all these elements of what has been considered “professional” filmmaking, in order to make a credible film, as Imran asks? Who knows, but the more of these films that are done with minimal craft and experienced personnel, or done with no or deferred payment (or insurance, or food, or safety or whatever) the more a new cost structure may may begin to emerge in the minds of producers of a certain level (as wonderfully presented in Imran’s very honest post here). Not ever at the high levels of production, but certainly at the margins.

We are seeing lots of still photographers moving into areas of video production that used to be considered the secure market of professional video companies specializing in corporate work– replacing what were once marketing pamphlets (illustrated with still pictures) with web videos - and they are doing them much cheaper because, after all, what do they know about the process? They have no experience in it, so they price the job as competitively as possible based on their own past experience as still photographers. They price them for a lot less.

I recently went to find a handy-man to fix a damaged screen door at my house, and looked on the bulletin board at my local coffee shop. There were two cards there for video producers, next to the yoga teachers, and dog walkers.

Ted Hope, the New York independent film blogger, recently wrote that there were 7,000 feature films made in the US every year and 40,000 internationally. I have no idea whether that is correct or not, but certainly a lot of them are being made every year. Will all of them find buyers and distribution? No, of course not. Will enough of them find success to keep the dream alive and continue to encourage crews to work for nothing or for sandwiches and great dreams of glory? Yes.

And will all of this have a long term effect on what is considered “professional” or even “acceptable” in our industry as far as the craft of filmmaking? I think that is a pretty interesting question. People have to learn craft somewhere. If you don’t use focus pullers, where will anyone learn to pull focus? If you think you can shoot in the dark, who will train anyone to use lights?

I wonder if that is some of the cause of the hostility that often surfaces on forums between the “real” filmmakers and the “hobbyists”?

Just a thought…

 

[Craig Parkes]

Imran, as a producer I have the reverse point of view to you. As a business person you should be looking into ways to increase the amount of gear, budget and crew available to you, rather than just cutting costs, you should be looking to get more for the amount you are willing to invest.

This of course depends on what you want to achieve, but presumably the director you are supporting has aspirations to make do features or commercially paying work, and your investment in the project is to invest in their career, so you want them to achieve.

Now, say you were instead supporting a up and coming Go Cart driver, who you thought one day could be an F1 Champion. Would you insist they cut costs, only buy the cheapest, bare minimum go cart, and had the smallest pit crew, or would you choose how much to invest, an then seek sponsorship, smart deals and good partners who had the same long term belief and vision towards victory to get the drive, on day, to the F1.

Don't tell your director to cut costs, tell him to find deals! But be aware, unlike you, he ma not be a business person, so it may be up to you to find the deals and do the negotiating, because the director will be worried that by negotiating personally he may piss off the crew he needs to make the best film, just like you would neve have the go cart driver be the person telling the pit crew their pay is going to be cut, because they need to believe in the driver, whereas they just need to respect the team manager, even if the hate him.

 

[Paul Nordin]

A feature was recently done in this city with a tiny crew and virtually no craft (focus pulling, lighting, professional actors, and so on). In some cases, scenes were shot entirely in the dark. And the film was sold, reviewed positively in the New York and national media, found an international distributor, was released in theaters in Europe, sold on DVD’s and so on.

Do you need all these elements of what has been considered “professional” filmmaking, in order to make a credible film, as Imran asks?

Your response indicates that you don't understand the point I was trying to make.

Two years ago, I shot a zombie/western feature ("The Dead and the Damned", you can find it now in redbox, amazon, itunes, etc.). It was beyond micro-low budget. For 1/2 of the production, I had one assistant and between the two of us we lit the sets, laid the dolly track, hoofed the gear up mountians, operated the steadicam, pulled focus, etc. For the other half of the film, it was just me doing everything camera/lighting related (I would ocationally make one of the producers hold a shiney board). The movie made money, is still making money. The movie was a pain in the ass to make, but also kind of fun for me. The director, producer, and I had many conversations before we shot the film about where we would spend the money, the types of shots we could make, what gear we would need for each type of shot and time. So even though we were shooting on a shoestring, we were able film what we were hoping to get and meet the film's business goals for investment/return.

It was the pre-production meetings where we went into detail that the success of the film was laid. And that is what I am suggesting here for Imran. There is no "generic lighting kit" that fits all needs for all low-budget. Every situation has a unique set of challenges for the DP. You should seriously push back on your Director's desire to wait until the last minute before getting a DP. Your Director is also inexperienced and his desire to delay bringing on a DP early is a clear indication of that. Get your DP, include him in the pre-production converstations about what, when, where, how. If for aesthetic reasons or budgetary reasons you want to shoot with no lights, he is the one that needs to figure out how to do that and deliver the images you want.