On RED after talking with industry veteran.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

File this under "feature request" but Nuke has this absolutely brilliant feature that I use all the time: the exposure and gamma sliders. They let you ramp up and down the gamma or white point just as their names imply. If there was a hot button to toggle between a few exposure/gamma settings you could very easily judge by eye what you're getting by moving more data into the middle of the curve.

The thing I don't like about false color is it will tell me I'm not clipping but it won't tell me how good the image is inside that last 1/2 stop of information. With a quick digital exposure reduction I can *see* how good the image is in the 'almost clipping' highlights.

It's sort of like sculpting. It's bloody difficult to 'learn' everything about the form that you need to know if you sit in place all day. You need different perspectives. You need to be able to walk around the subject and explore its form.

Waveforms, vectorscopes and false color overlays all are great fast hints at the underlying form.... but nothing imo beats just getting another angle on the subject.

 

[Joel Kaye]

Joel, did you see my example in that Lake Powell thread?

And here is a super cheesy and quick photoshop comp with sky replacement:

No, I missed that but I think what you have here would probably fool 90% of average viewers. Your other shot there really points out the dramatic difference in exposure a scene can have. I do think a person could comp those two shots and really have something special though. Even in 35mm people have issues. I'm excited to test RED out. I know we'll figure out how to get the most out of the camera.

 

[Joel Kaye]

I feel the false color would be ideal for dynamic use, but not so much the focus assist, at least not in the current form. It's best used for static shots when you dont have a focus tape handy.

It would really be nice to have that Focus Assist become something that can be used dynamically. Get your hands on the Sony EX1 and turn the edge enhancement up to high. Works great. RED needs it.

I guess JVC is coming out with a 9 inch monitor that will have their version built in. Panny has something similar though I've never used it.

 

[GlennChan]

Regarding the clipping issue...

Almost all video cameras have knee algorithms that will take the highlights and apply a non-linearity/knee to the highlights to make them roll-off "nicely". One of the issues is that a straight-forward approach reduces color saturation... so there are different approaches to doing this and many of them try to keep hue and saturation looking correct (and in a sense, the camera is playing colorist with your footage).

So:
1- In color grading, it might make sense to apply your own "video or filmic knee". A s-shaped curve on the R'G'B' channels will emulate what film does. (Though you run into highlights desaturating and shifting in hue.)

2- It will likely make sense to do some exposure + grading tests to see where the sweet spot lies for you.

3- Once you figure out where your exposure sweet spot is, get familiar with the camera's monitoring to figure out how to get your sweet spot. (Or rather, you kind of have to take notes when you record the footage in the first place. Take notes on how things look like in the viewfinder.)

 

[M Most]

1- In color grading, it might make sense to apply your own "video or filmic knee". A s-shaped curve on the R'G'B' channels will emulate what film does. (Though you run into highlights desaturating and shifting in hue.)

All true. And I would add that the shot Rudi was referring to was corrected by my choice to have a bit more contrast than someone else might like. That was done for a number of reasons, some having to do with film recording tests. There are numerous ways to handle that in most color correctors. In Scratch, I've done various versions of that same shot with less low end compression (curves can be great tools.....). So although I would agree with everything Rudi said regarding exposure control during production, there's a bit more flexibility in post than one might think.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Well, there certainly was enough room for Mike to maneuver around with the footage, and thank god, even projected, I did not see any of the noise that has been plaguing shooters like Mc Gregor and others (then again, this was a daylight exterior) so the footage lived up to its expectations of post maleability.

But, being that my goal is to have my project going to film out, Mike's corrections were right on the money for me, and having that kind of contrast and increased blacks would mean the footage would not look as clean as, say, Crossing the Line, and would to some extent look like glorified HD. I'm concerned because the first project I want to use RED for is a music video shot completely on exteriors in Jamaica, and on a beach and boats to boot, so if I have to protect for the highlights too much, then I'm afraid I'll loose too much detail on the vegetation and other high contrast, shadowy areas. And then, this video is actually being shot to showcase RED as a tool to my producers in Europe for a feature film, which is to be shot on the Turkish coast in the summer. If you've ever seen the Mediterranean, or better yet, the Aegean sea in August, you'll know that there isn't one SINGLE cloud on the sky and as a result, skies look magenta and retain very little blue. If I have to compensate too much for those hot skies, then I'll end up with way too much noise on the blues and other underexposed areas...So right now, since I don't have the luxury (or the time and money rather) to be playing with a RED on a frequent basis like current owners, I'm a bit at odds as to what would be the best way to approach these shoots...and I am convinced that I can't shoot my projects on film, and other HD cameras aren't going to give me the resolution and DOF I want to project on a big screen...

Just need to figure out how to make RED work past its limitations,

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I think you may be over-concerned about the latitude issue -- afterall, people shoot gorgeous beach footage on regular HD cameras all the time, and the latitude with those cameras is probably less than a RED camera has. Yes, you always run into a shot that pushes the limits -- like white sand in sun with dark shadowed foilage in the background. Maybe ND grads for the white sand may help in that scenario.

Afterall, commercial and landscape photographers take beautiful nature shots on large-format cameras using reversal (slide) film, which has even less exposure range.

 

[Jannard]

I have seen trained professionals clip footage in post (RED Alert! or REDCINE) that had info in the highlights. It is pretty easy to do.

If you expose to keep detail in the highlights (waveform or histogram in camera) you will not be disappointed in the DR of RED. It is not film. But it competes with the best DSLR's on the market... and certainly other digital cinema cameras.

I show examples to people who come over how easy it is to "take out" the range. Gotta learn it and then it becomes second nature.

The ones that suffer most are those that are used to shooting film. The knee-jerk reaction to make sure there is detail in the shadows at all costs end up with the footage that has the most blown out highlights. Digital is exactly the opposite. You need to protect the highlights you want at all costs during exposure.

Jim

 

[Jannard]

Life is a trade-off. If you want film latitude, shoot film. But then you have to sacrifice resolution (not much), live with grain, film loading, processing, telecine, costs, etc.

If you shoot digital, you get the easy road... resolution, clean color and the ease of shooting... then seeing it and working on it instantly. But you sacrifice some range. Less if you are careful, more if you are not.

Jim

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Jim,

I appreciate your reply very much, and appreciate your situation as the creator and developer of RED. I've shot film (as an SLR photographer) for years and love its range, but the truth is, I can live with a lot less range as long as I can avoid either nasty noise on one end or blown whites on the other. I really can live with that. I believe in digital and believe in what the RED is trying to be and trying to offer us. I just hope that I can maximize the capabilities of the camera and minimize its weaknesses while working on projects where I'll have the rent the camera where time is short and not meant to be used to test the camera and learn how it behaves in different situations. For what I've seen, the learning curve will be steep at first, so for those first 2-3 projects where I'll be renting RED, I'll live by the Alan Sheppard mantra of "Please Lord, don't let me f..k up" that's all.

 

[planet e]

everyone who shoots video for broadcast should already know the importance of protecting highlights, using NDs, polas, etc. or adding sky replacements. these are common video issues, rudi, and it's smart to spend a little time with your camera before you shoot to print.

you're sounding the alarms pretty loudly over stuff that is fairly commonplace. no one ever said this was a camera for beginners. but protecting the highlights in outdoors shooting is normal stuff! there's a reason that they call it Magic Hour....

instead of getting worked about what the camera can and cannot do, you should get really ready to deal with its limitations. no camera on the planet is without them. it's like a musician blaming a baritone saxophone for not hitting the high notes.

 

[MalcomXB]

-- afterall, people shoot gorgeous beach footage on regular HD cameras all the time, and the latitude with those cameras is probably less than a RED camera has.

i just shot a panasonic hpx3000 along side a red, the hpx3000 had more highlight and shadow detail maybe 2-3 stops. but it is almost twice the cost.

X

 

[Rudi Herbert]

these are common video issues, rudi, you're sounding the alarms pretty loudly over stuff that is fairly commonplace. no one ever said this was a camera for beginners. but protecting the highlights in outdoors shooting is normal stuff! there's a reason that they call it Magic Hour....
instead of getting worked about what the camera can and cannot do, you should get really ready to deal with its limitations. no camera on the planet is without them. it's like a musician blaming a baritone saxophone for not hitting the high notes.

I know the limitations of video, I've shot plenty of it, I just expected RED, and still expect, to behave better than the average video camera. The footage I saw exhibited real bad clipping, the kind that even a lesser camera could avoid, and as I said, I don't know whether it was caused by improper metering or what. But it was there. I've also said that I'm putting my faith on RED and have put down reservations for 3 cameras. Now, as I'll be renting the camera for a couple of quick projects first, I can't afford to spend time getting to know it, so I just hope the camera can deliver the image that is capable of without time consuming tweaking, that's all...Magic hour is the last hour before sunset last time I checked, what I saw was not filmed at that time.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

i just shot a panasonic hpx3000 along side a red, the hpx3000 had more highlight and shadow detail maybe 2-3 stops. but it is almost twice the cost. X

And if that's true, that's concerning to say the least. Regardless what the Panasonic costs, it's still a 2/3'' sensor against a 4K Mysterium, and there's no way RED should be inferior to such a camera. That's all, I don't expect RED to handle like film, but at the very least to match the performance of existing 1080i camcorders out there. Is it doing that on a regular basis or only when handled by somebody who knows the camera in and out because they own it?