OLED monitors are comming.

[AndreeMarkefors]

HDR high brightness desktop makes almost zero sense, especially with stone age UI design and bright windows and wow factor comes at a price of additional strain of visual system at no practical purpose whatsoever.

It makes a lot of sense to me. I want to be able to evaluate HDR content at the desktop without the need for an extra monitor just for that.

Everything about our UIs could stay exactly the same. No need to make something brighter on the screen than it needs to be. In the beginning I guess monitors will operate mostly in SDR and switch to HDR when asked so by the OS/app. Like TVs today.

But I consider that a bump in the road until we get totally seamless transitions, or everything is simply HDR encoded.

HDR doesn't automatically mean stuff gets brighter. All reflected light should sit at levels close to what they are now. But it's emitting light sources or specular highlights that won't need to be compressed down but can rather extend more naturally by being displayed brighter.

It would be pretty retarded to use a HDR wallpaper with a bright light source day in and day out. But that behaviour/expectation has nothing to do with the technology itself.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

It makes a lot of sense to me. I want to be able to evaluate HDR content at the desktop without the need for an extra monitor just for that.

Yes I understand that, but that is circular logic and that way the thing justifies itself.

You are basically saying "I need this tech to be able to use this tech".

You cannot evaluate the content properly without the dedicated video card output and a 3 axis calibrated screen. Current GPU/software implementation does not give you a referent image, it gives "something". So you need an external monitor anyway.

Everything about our UIs could stay exactly the same.

Like white windows and high contrast borders ?

: )

No need to make something brighter on the screen than it needs to be. In the beginning I guess monitors will operate mostly in SDR and switch to HDR when asked so by the OS/app. Like TVs today.

You don't get to decide. Screen is setup for HDR and material gets mapped accordingly. Someone downloads an image shaped for sRGB and it turns into a circus because colour choices were done while viewing an sRGB gamut.

"Better than real" in a society glued to screens and fed with propaganda daily is potentially a social hazard.

HDR doesn't automatically mean stuff gets brighter. All reflected light should sit at levels close to what they are now. But it's emitting light sources or specular highlights that won't need to be compressed down but can rather extend more naturally by being displayed brighter.

HDR means there is less compression of the signal extremes, which means signal extremes stay more intense, which strains the eye more with emitted than with natural reflected and dispersed light and especially if used indoor with lower brightness surroundings.

You are unlikely to read that in product release or copy/paste journalism.

And you are even less likely to read that brain compensates neurotransmitter activity with prolonged exposure to overflow of stimuli. The latter being something with long term effects which you would not appreciate at all.

It would be pretty retarded to use a HDR wallpaper with a bright light source day in and day out. But that behaviour/expectation has nothing to do with the technology itself.

That's the point. In many cases masses won't get to decide and misuse is more likely than proper use. This is an issue to be taken within a wider social context, not idealistic view.

With transition to flat panels most people did not tune their TV sets and just left them at default settings set up by the manufacturers with minimal tweaks clueless of all the variables in the setup. Many still complaining why the image looks worse and completely unnatural compared to their old TV sets. Even if we disregard the motion flow circus and just focus on boosted contrast and exploding colours.
I have setup a bunch of friend's and relatives' TV sets to get rid of the visual circus and only after that it was "oh yeah that works now".

Did you see HDR demos at stores some of the companies use to push the tech ? Few are done properly while some look like an insult to eyes. How many people will dig in menus to tweak the image or pay for a professional to setup their display ?

Again, I am not criticising the tech all by itself in a vacuum but stressing the full context it is being pushed in.


One example of proper high brightness HDR usage is outdoor monitoring.
Standard monitors are borderline useless there.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Yes I understand that, but that is circular logic and that way the thing justifies itself.

I try to talk about the strengths of HDR as I see them. But I feel you talk about what I talk about, instead of addressing the topic directly. When you break down my posts line by line and tell me how I'm wrong in every sentence, it becomes very tedious and fruitless to have a discussion.

By the way, it's not "circular logic" to say I want an HDR monitor to be able to work with HDR material. They go together.

Like white windows and high contrast borders ?

: )

Hmmm... do you know how HDR works? A white wall in an apartment scene won't land at 1000+ nits. It should be roughly as bright as a white wall in an SDR scene. A white UI element on an HDR monitor should illuminate about as much light as a white UI element does now.

I don't mind you being pessimistic about HDR—it won't affect my life. But I hope you understand that it will become too tiring to have to reply to these breakdowns to defend my position—which I would have no problem doing.

Maybe the biggest difference between us is simply that I see the tech and imagine all the good stuff that could happen, while you're mainly preoccupied with everything that can go wrong?

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I try to talk about the strengths of HDR as I see them. But I feel you talk about what I talk about, instead of addressing the topic directly. When you break down my posts line by line and tell me how I'm wrong in every sentence, it becomes very tedious and fruitless to have a discussion.

By the way, it's not "circular logic" to say I want an HDR monitor to be able to work with HDR material. They go together.

You raised the HDR argument, I wrote the factors which defy its purpose and addressed where you twist my words. Not sure what is the problem. No intention for dragging this, I have no problem with your perception, you seem to have a problem with mine as if I somehow don't see how actually great something is.

It is circular logic when it is used as an argument to justify the purpose of itself. Of course you need an HDR monitor to work with HDR. Who said you should actually produce in HDR in the first place ? The Brands ? The TREND ?

Hmmm... do you know how HDR works? A white wall in an apartment scene won't land at 1000+ nits. It should be roughly as bright as a white wall in an SDR scene.

No, not really, there is no "white wall" reference, that will depend on how brightly lit is the wall in the shot, so sunlight or bright spotlight etc will blast in HDR. I never mentioned the "white wall" specifically btw, I wrote "white windows" for UI elements with white background. I also wrote "signal extremes", suggesting the peak brightness of an HDR exterior scene when viewed in interior of an average daylit living room. Not to mention evening.

A white UI element on an HDR monitor should illuminate about as much light as a white UI element does now.

Sounds great, I hope to be proven wrong and that will actually work as intended although even proper UI scaling is still a challenge for many.

So...most UI stuff should adapt DR so it is not eye straining, you don't need HDR mode for wallpaper, software UI mid(ish) gray anyway and HDR desktop is terribly relevant for...something. (else than product feature tag for marketing advantage).
Okay.

I don't mind you being pessimistic about HDR—it won't affect my life. But I hope you understand that it will become too tiring to have to reply to these breakdowns to defend my position—which I would have no problem doing.

Maybe the biggest difference between us is simply that I see the tech and imagine all the good stuff that could happen, while you're mainly preoccupied with everything that can go wrong?

I am neither pessimistic nor I fail to see the good stuff. I specifically mentioned some examples of proper usage and stressed the issue with general usage. Saying how great something is or can be is always easy. I can fantasize about the good stuff all day. I am deliberately bringing this up because no one else seems to. It's all fun and dandy with pink unicorns dancing over rainbows and whoever shovels something new to play with must be automatically right and it must be awesome because new and if anyone is telling otherwise is must be a grumpy party pooper. In a society constantly screwing itself over at every opportunity then crying later and seeking remedy when it's too late, while no one wanted to listen in the start. Pharma will be glad to mix something up and sell the pill to dullify the repercussions.

It is not "just a wider DR screen", this changes quite a few things in many aspects, from cinematographic to entertainment effect over media perception over social matters to biological and neurological matters...and it is being force fed to masses and rushed like a new benign toy for everyone to play with.

I said what needed to be said and don't see a point in dragging this further.
This is not fun at all. It is community service.

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

I like plasma because it basically looks like a flat CRT, which many would still argue produces the nicest image. Imagine how big and heavy a 4k CRT would be lol!

 

[andrewhake]

..which many would still argue produces the nicest image.

No.

 

[Remington Chase]

I thought Sony has been shipping all their TV in the default "HDR" mode since the 80's.

We love our brand new LG OLED HDR TV, it's great for looking at amazing images and everything pops like crazy but absolutely nothing looks realistic on it, everything looks hyper realistic (which means fake). So far the best thing I've seen on it is the 4k version of Hateful 8 and most of the 4k HDR releases seem to be somewhat distracting and not really "better" then their blurays.

Once a standard workflow emerges that looks good I'm sure things will work out.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I thought Sony has been shipping all their TV in the default "HDR" mode since the 80's.

We love our brand new LG OLED HDR TV, it's great for looking at amazing images and everything pops like crazy but absolutely nothing looks realistic on it, everything looks hyper realistic (which means fake). So far the best thing I've seen on it is the 4k version of Hateful 8 and most of the 4k HDR releases seem to be somewhat distracting and not really "better" then their blurays.

Once a standard workflow emerges that looks good I'm sure things will work out.

It can look photorealistic, depending on material's post and TV setup.

Feature films are one thing, but in the context of naturalistic HDR, download Sony's HDR promo and go through your TV's settings and if you set it up right the imagery should look very good. This is how it looks when it is done right.

Whether this approach is something suitable for typical storytelling and continuous exposure that is for a whole different discussion.


http://4kmedia.org/sony-bravia-uhd-hdr-4k-demo/

 

[Thomas Koch]

Are Q-Leds actually going to be a thing. Thought they were supposed to replace OLED.

 

[L. Langer]

Are Q-Leds actually going to be a thing. Thought they were supposed to replace OLED.

Are you asking about monitors or TVs? They are two completely different markets, with some overlap and both are going in different directions. QLED has been too expensive to appeal to consumers, which is why it's remained on high-end products. Right now, the big news is that China is getting into OLED display manufacturing for EVERYTHING and Samsung/LG are backing microLED tech to fill out the high-end and mid-range segment of the TV market where sales have been slow, due to the pushing of OLED and QLED. The monitor market is focused on introducing low-cost HDR displays and more 4K/5K options and we won't know what direction the various companies are taking with new or old panel tech until Computex.