Stephen Webb
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Well I'm glad someone's getting to see 'em, 'cause they never get released over here!
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OK... Film vs. RED
- Thread starter Jannard
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Well I'm glad someone's getting to see 'em, 'cause they never get released over here!
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MarkJLyon
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Thank you, David! I think you're quite right.
This discussion raises a number of reactions for me:
-) I tend to prefer the aesthetic of film to digital images. I think it comes down to being aware of the art form while I'm simultaneously aware of the story. Grain is one aspect of this--it calls your attention to the imagery in each frame. Film's less transparent in that way. I tend to like that. Folks who prefer a more transparent, "real" look might prefer digital.
Another aspect of it is the 24fps frame rate. Remember when video guys used to say "24P looks stuttery! 30 frames interlaced looks so much more real"? Exactly. If I'm after "real," I'll shoot video. But if I'm after something else, something heightened, I might want film.
On the other hand, there's "Sin City."
I think it depends on the subject matter, and the stylistic choices you make as an artist in response to that subject. To me, those choices are a lot more interesting than the choice of capture technology that stems from them.
-) Red vs. Film as Polyester vs. Cotton
I talk to clients a lot about choosing film or video for a shoot, and this often comes up. Polyester is lighter, stronger, and cheaper than cotton. And it's waterproof! So why aren't you wearing polyester jeans? It might come down to how it feels.
-) I shoot a DSLR for stills. Simply because of workflow and convenience. But when I shoot film stills, I pay more attention, and make better shots. But I think the DSLR is better for my learning curve. I imagine Red will be the same way. Both are cool. Both are choices.
-) I have more fun shooting film than I do shooting video. Perhaps it's the heightened attention that comes from burning money and not knowing exactly what you're getting! ;-) Seriously, though, I think that having more fun translates into doing better work.
-) I'm a commercial director, but I shoot a lot of my own film too. I tend to prefer Super16 for the work I do (mostly real people/heartfelt work) because of its filmic texture, and the small scale of the cameras. On my little projects, film and processing costs are really a small part of the puzzle. Getting the look in telecine is the big budget hit.
-) Are most Red users planning to become colorists? I don't have anything against this, and will do it myself. It reminds me of the whole desktop design revolution, when getting a mac suddenly qualified you to be a typesetter. A lot of horrible type was set (including a lot by me). But we learned along the way, and now it's just the way it's done. To many eyes, though, our cultural standards for quality also went down.
-) If we do go DIY on grading, I hope we do a good job of it. Part of that will be learning from the folks who do it for a living.
Okay, thanks for letting me join the discussion. Great group! I love how Red has opened up their process. That's the real revolution, in my view.
Best of luck on your projects.
--Mark Lyon
Mighty Max Films
Sean Michael Johnston
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What he said - I can own it, which makes all the difference.
Jay A. Kelley
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This is cool.. I am so damn proud of the people on here.. I hope I get the chance to meet you someday Jim.
David, I KNOW we'll meet. I don't know why, but I have no doubt we will
Jay
Steve Gibby
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Overview
Is RED One a viable alternative for film? In my opinion, the answer is “yes!” This thread has chewed through all angles of that question. An observation: In this narrative cinema centric thread, what has been overlooked is that not only is RED One a viable alternative to film, but also RED One is a viable alternative choice for a vast array of other cine style, non-narrative cinema genres which have traditionally used film: commercials, music “videos”, etc. Beyond that, RED One is a viable alternative for a vast array of non-hardlined EFP and hardlined EFP production genres – all in one camera system! The bottom line? RED One will be a workable, logical, and function alternative for just about any motion media project. Will your skill sets and mind set match the flexibility and capability of RED One? That’s the bottom line…
Here is a paste of a post I made 16 months ago, on 12/17/05, on both the DVX User RED forum and the DVi RED forum. Keep in mind that this was posted right after the first announcement of the RED One camera system, and before any of the actual development on the camera system was started:
"In the mid-90's the introduction of affordable, small form factor camcorders (DV, DVCAM, DVCPro formats), and cost-effective NLE systems, combined to thoroughly revolutionize and democratize the television and video production industry. The "gatekeepers" (programming executives) at networks had to change their thinking and acceptance criteria, progressive producers adopted the technology, and the industry polarized into two distinct pods: large networks and small boutique production houses that use 1099 Misc. freelancers - very little "middle class". Bottom line: affordable tools placed in the hands of seasoned pros and newcomers alike radically altered the dynamic and status quo of the television and video production industry.
Then:
The introduction of affordable 24p (DVX100, etc.) signaled the first assault on the sacred sanctuary of filmmaking. Media convergence was placed into overdrive! Traditional filmmakers were forced to learn video technology in order to compete on increasingly limited budgets with a ravenous horde of indie filmmakers armed with 24p video camcorders and desktop NLE's that enabled a "film look" using electronic technology rather than a manual/celluloid paradigm. Film crews learned about CCD's, electronic menus, new posting technology, etc., while TV/video crews learned about using prime lenses, depth of field, and editing 24p. Affordable 24p video technology had effectively converged the film and video camps into one large tent - video electronics, mated with film lenses and techniques. Then media convergence jumped into warp drive: George Lucas shoots "Star Wars" with a convergence camera (F950), Walter Murch edits "Cold Mountain" using Final Cut Pro, Steven Soderburgh shoots "Full Frontal" in DV, and a myriad of other examples of convergent projects. Simultaneously, scores of indie "films" (though no film was ever used in the workflow) were created by DVX-armed "filmmakers", and were flooding indie film festivals worldwide. The floodgates were open and the flow was irreversible...
Fast forward to 2003-2005. New technology, affordable chips, and increased storage possibilities spark a new generation of techno-geeks to attempt to create relatively affordable digital cinema cameras to address the creative desires of hungry indie filmmakers, wannabe HDTV producers, and disassociated film industry crews. The large equipment manufacturers struggle to protect their "upper end" lines from the techno-onslaught, while broadcasters and few large production houses that are still left bury their heads in the sand in an ostrich act justified by "protecting their legacy investments". The well-intentioned indie camera manufacturers are hamstrung by fiscal shortfalls and a resultant lack of access to materials and R&D.
Enter the RED camera. Charles Darwin was right in many respects. Humankind evolves - and so does their tools. It doesn't take a "rocket scientist" to recognize that the evolution of media convergence of the film and video industries has opened the barn doors to the next incarnation of digital cinema cameras. Is there an industry need for an affordable 2540p/4k/2k/1080p/720p "Swiss Army Knife" of a digital cinema/HDTV camera? Yes! Will the traditional large equipment manufacturers produce such a camera, and in the process cripple their higher end offerings? No! So- there's a huge demand for a product like that, and zero supply of such. Along comes Jim Jannard and RED. They recognize the demand, see that nobody will or can fulfill the product need, assess their possibilities to create a product to fill the need, decide that they can, start R&D, gather together some of the best engineers, programmers, shooters, and marketers they can find, and here comes the RED camera!
Post script: If the RED camera meets its specs, is affordable, and is marketed effectively, it has the potential to revolutionize the convergent film/video industry in the same way that the cost-effective DV/DVCAM/DVCPro cameras and desktop NLE's introduced in the mid-'90's, and affordable 24p (DVX100, etc.), enabled massive convergence of film and video. Now that film crews and TV/video crews largely and progressively use the same technology, the time is right for such a tool as the RED camera. Earlier adopters of progressive technology greatly enhance their creative and fiscal competitiveness in the marketplace. Slow adopters and the "I'm not changing, I've always done it this way" resisters have effective programmed themselves for professional extinction - and they don't even realize it. Buying a new paintbrush doesn't automatically make you Picasso, but if you have the talent and experience to bring to that new brush, great results are inevitable. If the other artists in your competitive sphere have equal experience and talent, but they are using outdated, worn, expensive brushes, their paintings simply have a lesser chance of competing in price and quality against the others. As artists we all want to create the masterpieces we've dreamed of. Artistry is a right brain function. Planning and budgeting are left brain functions. The stark reality is that without going left brained enough to face the fiscal realities of the evolving film/video marketplace, the majority of artists will sadly never realize their dream productions. It's time for a left brained reality check folks. If the RED camera meets it's specs, is affordable, and is marketed correctly, you've probably then found the convergent paint brush that will take you to the next level, enable you to realize your creative dreams, and allow you to compete and financially survive in an increasingly competitive media marketplace.
In professional Darwinian terms, what's it going to be for you - evolution or extinction?"
-----------------------------------------------------
Postscript
I’m old enough (58) to have experienced the classic films of the ‘50’s and ‘60’s first hand, sitting in theaters. (Heck…I’m even older than Jim Jannard!) I’m a still photography veteran of 4 decades and a motion media veteran of 3 decades. I’ve seen a lot of change over those years. Do I respect film and enjoy its aesthetics? Definitely. Have I evolved to enjoy and respect the aesthetics of digital cinema, as exemplified by RED One? Definitely. Is RED a viable alternative to film? Definitely. Do I now prefer the look of RED 4k footage to that of 35mm film? Yes. Will the viewing public? IMO yes. As a producer/director of features, HDTV programming, commercials, and a multitude of other genre projects, will I use RED On in lieu of 35mm for almost all those projects? Yes. Why? For the reasons that Jim Jannard summarized, and many more. Am I a “fanboy”? No, I’m a highly-experienced professional that knows how to balance the need for effective aesthetics with fiscal realities of the marketplace.
Contrary to popular opinion, age has no bearing on one’s inclination to embrace change in the workplace. An open mind and willingness to learn knows no upper or lower age limits. I’ve readily embraced useful changes in the image creation industry throughout my career. RED One isn’t a “young gun” camera system – it’s a “progressive gun” camera system. Its not age or experience, but rather an open attitude that enables someone to see RED One as an alternative to film - and an alternative for about every other professional motion media camera system on the planet, depending on the lens and accessory package used. IMO narrow minds, unions, legacy investments, resistance to change, and a myriad of other factors will cause some to ignore RED One’s capabilities.
IMO RED has laid out all the pieces of an end to end 4k workflow that is a viable alternative to film and television production: camera, accessories, lenses, software, editing workflow, 4k displays, and the final piece – 4k projection.
The last line in my December 2005 post quoted above is still a good closer for this post:
“ In professional Darwinian terms, what's it going to be for you - evolution or extinction?”
Is RED One a viable alternative for film? In my opinion, the answer is “yes!” This thread has chewed through all angles of that question. An observation: In this narrative cinema centric thread, what has been overlooked is that not only is RED One a viable alternative to film, but also RED One is a viable alternative choice for a vast array of other cine style, non-narrative cinema genres which have traditionally used film: commercials, music “videos”, etc. Beyond that, RED One is a viable alternative for a vast array of non-hardlined EFP and hardlined EFP production genres – all in one camera system! The bottom line? RED One will be a workable, logical, and function alternative for just about any motion media project. Will your skill sets and mind set match the flexibility and capability of RED One? That’s the bottom line…
Here is a paste of a post I made 16 months ago, on 12/17/05, on both the DVX User RED forum and the DVi RED forum. Keep in mind that this was posted right after the first announcement of the RED One camera system, and before any of the actual development on the camera system was started:
"In the mid-90's the introduction of affordable, small form factor camcorders (DV, DVCAM, DVCPro formats), and cost-effective NLE systems, combined to thoroughly revolutionize and democratize the television and video production industry. The "gatekeepers" (programming executives) at networks had to change their thinking and acceptance criteria, progressive producers adopted the technology, and the industry polarized into two distinct pods: large networks and small boutique production houses that use 1099 Misc. freelancers - very little "middle class". Bottom line: affordable tools placed in the hands of seasoned pros and newcomers alike radically altered the dynamic and status quo of the television and video production industry.
Then:
The introduction of affordable 24p (DVX100, etc.) signaled the first assault on the sacred sanctuary of filmmaking. Media convergence was placed into overdrive! Traditional filmmakers were forced to learn video technology in order to compete on increasingly limited budgets with a ravenous horde of indie filmmakers armed with 24p video camcorders and desktop NLE's that enabled a "film look" using electronic technology rather than a manual/celluloid paradigm. Film crews learned about CCD's, electronic menus, new posting technology, etc., while TV/video crews learned about using prime lenses, depth of field, and editing 24p. Affordable 24p video technology had effectively converged the film and video camps into one large tent - video electronics, mated with film lenses and techniques. Then media convergence jumped into warp drive: George Lucas shoots "Star Wars" with a convergence camera (F950), Walter Murch edits "Cold Mountain" using Final Cut Pro, Steven Soderburgh shoots "Full Frontal" in DV, and a myriad of other examples of convergent projects. Simultaneously, scores of indie "films" (though no film was ever used in the workflow) were created by DVX-armed "filmmakers", and were flooding indie film festivals worldwide. The floodgates were open and the flow was irreversible...
Fast forward to 2003-2005. New technology, affordable chips, and increased storage possibilities spark a new generation of techno-geeks to attempt to create relatively affordable digital cinema cameras to address the creative desires of hungry indie filmmakers, wannabe HDTV producers, and disassociated film industry crews. The large equipment manufacturers struggle to protect their "upper end" lines from the techno-onslaught, while broadcasters and few large production houses that are still left bury their heads in the sand in an ostrich act justified by "protecting their legacy investments". The well-intentioned indie camera manufacturers are hamstrung by fiscal shortfalls and a resultant lack of access to materials and R&D.
Enter the RED camera. Charles Darwin was right in many respects. Humankind evolves - and so does their tools. It doesn't take a "rocket scientist" to recognize that the evolution of media convergence of the film and video industries has opened the barn doors to the next incarnation of digital cinema cameras. Is there an industry need for an affordable 2540p/4k/2k/1080p/720p "Swiss Army Knife" of a digital cinema/HDTV camera? Yes! Will the traditional large equipment manufacturers produce such a camera, and in the process cripple their higher end offerings? No! So- there's a huge demand for a product like that, and zero supply of such. Along comes Jim Jannard and RED. They recognize the demand, see that nobody will or can fulfill the product need, assess their possibilities to create a product to fill the need, decide that they can, start R&D, gather together some of the best engineers, programmers, shooters, and marketers they can find, and here comes the RED camera!
Post script: If the RED camera meets its specs, is affordable, and is marketed effectively, it has the potential to revolutionize the convergent film/video industry in the same way that the cost-effective DV/DVCAM/DVCPro cameras and desktop NLE's introduced in the mid-'90's, and affordable 24p (DVX100, etc.), enabled massive convergence of film and video. Now that film crews and TV/video crews largely and progressively use the same technology, the time is right for such a tool as the RED camera. Earlier adopters of progressive technology greatly enhance their creative and fiscal competitiveness in the marketplace. Slow adopters and the "I'm not changing, I've always done it this way" resisters have effective programmed themselves for professional extinction - and they don't even realize it. Buying a new paintbrush doesn't automatically make you Picasso, but if you have the talent and experience to bring to that new brush, great results are inevitable. If the other artists in your competitive sphere have equal experience and talent, but they are using outdated, worn, expensive brushes, their paintings simply have a lesser chance of competing in price and quality against the others. As artists we all want to create the masterpieces we've dreamed of. Artistry is a right brain function. Planning and budgeting are left brain functions. The stark reality is that without going left brained enough to face the fiscal realities of the evolving film/video marketplace, the majority of artists will sadly never realize their dream productions. It's time for a left brained reality check folks. If the RED camera meets it's specs, is affordable, and is marketed correctly, you've probably then found the convergent paint brush that will take you to the next level, enable you to realize your creative dreams, and allow you to compete and financially survive in an increasingly competitive media marketplace.
In professional Darwinian terms, what's it going to be for you - evolution or extinction?"
-----------------------------------------------------
Postscript
I’m old enough (58) to have experienced the classic films of the ‘50’s and ‘60’s first hand, sitting in theaters. (Heck…I’m even older than Jim Jannard!) I’m a still photography veteran of 4 decades and a motion media veteran of 3 decades. I’ve seen a lot of change over those years. Do I respect film and enjoy its aesthetics? Definitely. Have I evolved to enjoy and respect the aesthetics of digital cinema, as exemplified by RED One? Definitely. Is RED a viable alternative to film? Definitely. Do I now prefer the look of RED 4k footage to that of 35mm film? Yes. Will the viewing public? IMO yes. As a producer/director of features, HDTV programming, commercials, and a multitude of other genre projects, will I use RED On in lieu of 35mm for almost all those projects? Yes. Why? For the reasons that Jim Jannard summarized, and many more. Am I a “fanboy”? No, I’m a highly-experienced professional that knows how to balance the need for effective aesthetics with fiscal realities of the marketplace.
Contrary to popular opinion, age has no bearing on one’s inclination to embrace change in the workplace. An open mind and willingness to learn knows no upper or lower age limits. I’ve readily embraced useful changes in the image creation industry throughout my career. RED One isn’t a “young gun” camera system – it’s a “progressive gun” camera system. Its not age or experience, but rather an open attitude that enables someone to see RED One as an alternative to film - and an alternative for about every other professional motion media camera system on the planet, depending on the lens and accessory package used. IMO narrow minds, unions, legacy investments, resistance to change, and a myriad of other factors will cause some to ignore RED One’s capabilities.
IMO RED has laid out all the pieces of an end to end 4k workflow that is a viable alternative to film and television production: camera, accessories, lenses, software, editing workflow, 4k displays, and the final piece – 4k projection.
The last line in my December 2005 post quoted above is still a good closer for this post:
“ In professional Darwinian terms, what's it going to be for you - evolution or extinction?”
I Bloom
Well-known member
Jim give them the Pepsi challenge.
Jim give them the Pepsi challenge.
What I'd like to see is the Red team setup and light some shots. Setup a 35mm camera and a RED one. Shoot the shots from the same positions with the same lenses. Put both kinds of footage through an established and very scientific set of steps for processing, scanning, film out etc. Make these steps absolutely public down to the nines. Then put it up on a screen and let people try and pick out the film footage vs. the Red footage (with a film look added).
You might even do this with an online quicktime.
I'm interested to see whether most could tell the difference. I really don't know the answer, I'd love to take the RED challenge myself.
As into the RED as I am, film still has my heart, it'd be nice if that wasn't nagging at me considering the financial advantages to shooting digital weigh in so heavily.
IB
Jim give them the Pepsi challenge.
What I'd like to see is the Red team setup and light some shots. Setup a 35mm camera and a RED one. Shoot the shots from the same positions with the same lenses. Put both kinds of footage through an established and very scientific set of steps for processing, scanning, film out etc. Make these steps absolutely public down to the nines. Then put it up on a screen and let people try and pick out the film footage vs. the Red footage (with a film look added).
You might even do this with an online quicktime.
I'm interested to see whether most could tell the difference. I really don't know the answer, I'd love to take the RED challenge myself.
As into the RED as I am, film still has my heart, it'd be nice if that wasn't nagging at me considering the financial advantages to shooting digital weigh in so heavily.
IB
More likely, have to run Spinrite for two hours without having to re-shoot.
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this thread is gonna be one of those epic "should be published" threads pretty soon...
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we actually just did this....
but a more public test is a good idea, when we have time.
Gunleik Groven
REDuser Sponsor
As a BTW, apparently some guy in Prague have seen something - according to Jim, earlier in this thread.
And what about that date in Berlin?
Gunleik
And what about that date in Berlin?
Gunleik
When I first became interested in Red 15 months ago, I was just looking for a low cost 2/3 inch HD video solution. Now everyone's comparing Red to film, and it's a foregone conclusion that Red is better than pretty much every other video camera. That's nice.
Ace
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Ahh eek.. Great minds think alike brother! I just posted the exact same comment on another thread heh heh
Shawn Bannon
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Also the nitrate prints on some of these films is insane, never seen anything quite like nitrate. awesome.
Craig Schober
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not all about story right now
not all about story right now
it's all about story when you're writing, shooting and editing. as of now everyone here has probably already written with red in mind but has not shot or edited yet with red. right now it's all about production budgets, compromises, who's camera is bigger, etc. until we get releases (i couldn't make it to nab) with redone, it's still film vs. hd.
not all about story right now
it's all about story when you're writing, shooting and editing. as of now everyone here has probably already written with red in mind but has not shot or edited yet with red. right now it's all about production budgets, compromises, who's camera is bigger, etc. until we get releases (i couldn't make it to nab) with redone, it's still film vs. hd.
In order to minimize loss in case of a HD failure, I suggest not to shoot the whole day on a single RED DRIVE. Swap them as often as possible and let the 2nd AC (or someone else) create dual backups on two separate drives before erasing the RED DRIVE in order to use it again. At least two RED DRIVES (or RED FLASH/RAM units) are needed for this process. Better have one spare.
My golden RED backup rules:
- Swap drives often
- Create dual backups right on the set
- Never ever strike a set or call it a day before dual backups of every shot have been made
- Store the two backups at separate places, transport them in separate cars
- Make more backups after the shoot
If you follow these simple rules, you should be much safer than with film.
Shawn Bannon
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maybe red can come up with some clever recovery software, just in case.
Rune Hansen
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Drives
Drives
We all need to remember that the Red Drives have harddisks inside, and these almost certainly will fail at some point. It's easy to get overly confident with harddisks, but I think verifying them often and also replacing them could be essential to prevent that.
I would consider adding this to your list:
-Rune
Mexico
Drives
We all need to remember that the Red Drives have harddisks inside, and these almost certainly will fail at some point. It's easy to get overly confident with harddisks, but I think verifying them often and also replacing them could be essential to prevent that.
I would consider adding this to your list:
- Verify drives 100% before/after shoots whenever possible (full surface scans, check SMART status, etc.)
- Use flash disks whenever possible on handheld/rough shots
- Buy new Red Drives often!
-Rune
Mexico
Álex Montoya
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There's more than enough recovery software out there. None of it is very useful when a real crash happens.
Greg Voevodsky
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Film will be dead much like the moviola and flat beds hanging from the ceiling in some production houses (at least in the USA) in less than a decade.
It will end when movie theaters no longer have film projectors (replaced by digital - already being done) and when the studios no longer release their movies on film (too expensive).
Hey, VHS will never die either... well... when was the last new Hollywood film that you saw on VHS? VHS is on life support right next to the old record.
FILM just got hit by a big RED TRUCK and is now heading to the hospital.
And unlike us old timers, the young independent filmmakers in film school today (who mostly don't shoot film) will be growing up shooting RED in their low budget features in a few years. They won't miss not using film like VHS and records.
Tom Lowe
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Pepsi Challenge - I agree.
I think they should bring in a top ASC guy and shoot something impressive with RED and 35mm under ideal, controlled circumstances.
I realize that most of the guys who post here are DPs and camera guys, but keep in mind that producers, directors and studio people will also have a major hand in deciding which format they will shoot their next feature -- RED, Genesis, 35mm, etc.
Shooting charts might impress camera nerds, but if you want to inspire directors and producers, shoot something more interesting!
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