OK... Film vs. RED

[REDHKSC]

We may as well get this out of the way...

1. Cost of equipment- advantage RED
New 35mm film camera system= roughly $150K-$300K depending on model and accessories.
New RED ONE system= roughly $25K
Used 35mm film system= roughly $25K-$100K depending on age, model and condition

2. Cost to use- advantage RED
The RED camera is microscopic in costs compared to buying, processing and scanning film.

3. Dynamic Range- advantage 35mm film
Film is roughly 13 stops. The RED camera is currently 11.3 (although we are working on improvement in this area).

4. Resolution- advantage RED
Every industry expert I spoke with at NAB said that our footage was equal to or greater than 35mm film in resolution. If you want to hold this one aside until there are side by side tests... no argument from me.

5. Grain- If you like it, advantage 35mm film. If you don't like it, advantage RED

6. Convenience- advantage RED
Shoot a film load for max 10 minutes before re-load. Shoot RED for 2 hours.

7. Pulling a key- advantage RED.
The lack of grain makes it much easier to separate a subject from green or blue screen.

One of the biggest advantages that 35mm film had over digital was that it is "filmic". The biggest compliment that we received at NAB was that the RED camera was the 1st digital footage they saw that "felt right". I won't name names, but they are hard names to beat. And most did NOT have reservations.

Please be clear that we are NOT saying we are a film replacement camera. We are saying that we are a film alternative. Choose what you want based on which advantages matter to you.

Jim

To me , no need to do direct Shoot-out, every picture tell a Story, and we just do our own story with our " TOOLS with PASSION " a little bit of sexy feelings with the Camera through our Blood Power.

You know what I am talking about ..............get connected to it .....

Enjoy.

Founder
Stewart Chong
REDHKSC.ORG
Greater CHINA

 

[Jannard]

David... you are always welcome to do a hands-on with RED when you have time. Everyone would love to hear your opinion. You are one person, across all boards, that everyone respects.

Jim

 

[Mardi_Gras]

David... you are always welcome to do a hands-on with RED when you have time. Everyone would love to hear your opinion. You are one person, across all boards, that everyone respects.

Jim

Second that. Infact, been asking for it.

 

[Bruce Allen]

If I had a 100+ million dollars I would probably.... shoot.......... a motion capture movie like beowulf if it turns out like the early buzz indicates the quality might.

I saw a rough cut of Beowulf a while back. It looked like it could indeed be excellent. Depends on how they finish off the eyes and mouths, of course! But is mo-cap viable for a majority of the stories we want to tell? Probably not yet.

I saw a filmout of Peter's movie (a short clip) in Prague yesterday. I was disappointed. It felt more film-like and everyone there thought it was very cool. But I missed the crystal clear feeling that I watched 100 times at NAB. I never thought it would happen, but it did. For those that wanted to see a "film", they got it. I was surprised that I wanted to go back and see it on a 4K projector.

We are in the middle of a big change... or should I say a "big alternative". The future will be very interesting in what the consumer chooses going forward. I'm sure that both will survive. But once you see 4K clean, it is a compelling choice.

Jim

Jim, we're looking forward to seeing those Red 4K projectors and trusting you to make a strong case with your products for digital projection being the better choice, convenience and quality-wise.

Lack of contrast and difficulty with saturated reds / yellows is my main problem with digital projection at the moment. The auto-iris thing they have is a bit of a cheat too - I saw a movie (Star Wars EP3 Attack of the Clones?) at the Arclight back in innocent days when I didn't know about the auto-iris and remember being taken right out of the movie, thinking "what just happened? Why did the black levels go so milky in that scene?". Not to mention the 2k screen-door effect (I could see the individual pixels) - but you have that covered, haha...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Deanan]

Once your eyes gets used to the digital version, it's hard to get used to the film-out. I spent weeks color-correcting the D.I. for "The Astronaut Farmer" using a 2K projector, and after that, I wished people had seen it in 2K projection because that's what I was looking at, so that's how I think it should look.

After being spoiled looking christie/barco 2k's and sony 4k for a while, it's hard watching a fresh filmout on a 4k film recorder and seeing the resolution drop down to less than 2k with added dust and schmutz. And then it's even worse once you watch stuff at the cineplex it's barely 1k.

Side comment: I wish kodak would drop the price of Vision Premiere so at least we'd be watch nice prints more often.

Deanan

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Shawn... did I thank you for the gift yet? If not... thanks. Really nice.

BTW, I've always liked you.

Jim

You're welcome Jim! I enjoyed figuring something out I could get you that I knew you wouldn't already have

 

[Andrew Benz]

David... you are always welcome to do a hands-on with RED when you have time. Everyone would love to hear your opinion. You are one person, across all boards, that everyone respects.

Jim

Damn, this selfish of me, But I offered David first hands on my camera after I come to RED an pick it up.:waaa: But... since you are selling me a $300,000+ (at least) for around $60,000 (that is fully equipped-primes,zoom,etc), I wil suck it up and eagerly look forward to the results. But, I still want to meet David, because he seems like a great all round guy who happens to be a great cinematographer. To me RED is as important a networking tool as it is a digital cinema camera...

Cheers

*edit* very first part said with fun loving sarcasm- As much as I enjoy and respect David's work, he was honestly worn out with all the bickering at###.com over RED. David had mentioned that he would like to get his hands on one so... I thought it was great opportunity to extend some RED goodwill. He deserves it for being so kind with his knowledge. Great thing is we all get to benefit much sooner. Just ribbing Jim a little...

 

[Jannard]

David is about as level-headed and knowledgeable a guy as there is that posts on these boards. We all look forward to his posts.

Jim

 

[Deanan]

We may as well get this out of the way...
...
6. Convenience- advantage RED
Shoot a film load for max 10 minutes before re-load. Shoot RED for 2 hours.

This one could also be under #6...

Time savings - not having to scan/telecine/ingest is added time
savings for editorial and vfx where there is increasing pressure
to get things done faster.

And one more...
Piece of mind - Knowing you can have multiple backups at the
end of the day.

 

[casey warren]

Yeah, the fact that you can take your footage directly from the camera....copy it and hand VFX/editorial a direct copy within a matter of an hour is awesome....streamlined fast workflow

 

[IAN SUN]

So much of what we like is a product of what we are used to.

After seeing "Crossing The Line" in in 4K from front row center and leaning forward watching for artifacts on the screen a few feet in front of me,
upon reflection I was surprised at how often I had to do a mental check and pull myself out of the movie.

My primary mission in traveling from Toronto to Las Vegas wast to look at some test footage from the proto RED ONEs in RED CODE RAW and watch like a hawk for compression or other artifacts.
I kept being pulled into the story. It was an experience that felt different than watching film, much like watching IMAX is different, but it was no less engrossing.

The RED 4K projection in fact felt more real than film because unless I've been up all night editing (like tonight) my vision is not usually grainy.
If there was one thing I would have changed about the projection that would have been to see it at a higher frame rate, again not necessarily "film like" but closer to reality, and certainly cinematic.
By cinematic I mean involuntary suspension of disbelief; which is certainly what I experienced.

Yeah I could get used to that, and I liked what I saw.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

RED

1) I can take the camera & MBP and go on a shooting tour.
2) I can discover new techniques for no extra cost;
3) use ideas in real time;
4) shoot hours of footage;
5) delete unwanted scenes;
6) do editing in my lap while sitting outside in an inspiring scenery;
7) compose a background music and add it to video;
8) carry the footage on a portable media;
9) come back to the studio with edited footage ready for CC.
+
10) Compact, quickly accessible, powerfull workflow, which puts more power in less hands = very fertile ground for artist's creativity

Film

1) Nope.
2) Nope,
3) Nope,
4) Nope,
5) Nope,
6) Nope,
7) Nope,
8) Nope,
9) Nope.

aaand

10) Nope.

Red = I can shoot, edit, grade and finish my independent low-budget feature myself.

Film = I can't.

Would I sacrifice 2 stops for all of that ?
Without a doubt.

 

[Jannard]

1.7 stops... for now.

Jim

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

If I had 100 million dollars to shoot a feature with, I'd pick the format that best-suited the needs of the production and the look I was trying to achieve.

David, having viewed Red footage, what would you say is a fitting genre or movie you've seen that would prompt you to use a Red for that particular project?

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

1.7 stops... for now.

Jim

For now....hehehehe :devil:

 

[Álex Montoya]

Hey, Jim, either you go to bed really late or you are in Prague. If the latter, how does the production of "Wanted" go?
I am a big fan of the writer of the comic-book Mark Millar and the book itself and Timur seems a good choice for directing the movie.

 

[Bachman]

Jim dosnt sleep

 

[Jannard]

night...

 

[Bachman]

night....Jim bob

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

1.7 stops... for now.

Jim

heh heh


"...subject to change..."




night...