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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

NTSC - PAL - SECAM

Martin Ubilluz

Martin Ubilluz

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Were shooting a music video that will be going to NTSC - PAL - and SECAM

whats the best time base I should be shooting at to have best quality on all formats.

I really love shooting only 23.97 can i still shoot that and make the conversions for all

thanks!!
 
Can you shoot two camera, one 23.976 and one 25.000?

Or just shoot twice?

If you convert the conversion software will impact the look of the motion.

Also don't sharpen at all because it can be good for the 4k image to be a bit soft going down to SD to avoid aliasing.
 
nope only one camera shoot
 
should i just shoot everything at 29 fps
 
25fps changes to 30 (29.97) and 24 more easily IMO.
 
1st ignore SECAM. All SECAM production is done in PAL, SECAM being a broadcast rather than a production standard. Secondly, what we're dealing with really is 25fps and 29.97fps, and now everything is digital, PAL, NTSC and SECAM are pretty much meaningless.

So, you have two options:

1) shoot 25fps. Go with this if you're in a 50hz territory
2) shoot 23.98fps. Go with this if you're in 60hz land.

To get "NTSC" from 2) you just add 3:2 pulldown. No problems. To get "PAL" you must speed up the footage 4%. This will cause havoc with audio sync, but image quality will be perfect.

To get "PAL" from 1) you're there already. To get NTSC you slow 4%, then add 3:2 at the end.

So the issue is not so much the image, as the audio.

Ideas to deal with that is to re-time the audio without altering the pitch to match the images, or to re-edit the video with the converted images adjusting the edits slightly to keep sync.

If anyone has more ideas on how to deal with this, we could have a great discussion here.

Graeme
 
Speeding up by 4% is the best approach, it has been done for decades in Europe to deal with film on TV. Anything else is introducing unnecessary artifacts or long transcoding times. It's not a big problem theses days to change speed of the audio without shifting pitch, any professional audio system can do that.

But if you are doing distribution on Blu-ray, you can save yourself the trouble: shoot 24 fps and every player out there can deal with it, it's part of the spec.
 
Speeding

Speeding

Uli Plank said:
Speeding up by 4% is the best approach,
Click to expand...

I would agree with Speeding 23.976 to 25 rather than slow down, I did some tests and found, I think, that people talking faster was better than slower.

Maybe the camera can be set to 24.5fps and then go a little both ways :rolleyes:
 
Whatever you do, I'd not shoot 29.97fps (30p) as that never converts well to anything else. If Uli's suggestion of BluRay works for you, go that way.

Still, I'd be keen to know how music videos shot in USA on 24p are converted for foreign playout.

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Still, I'd be keen to know how music videos shot in USA on 24p are converted for foreign playout.

Graeme
Click to expand...

I shot several music videos for the US market in Europe in the old 35mm days. We shot at 29.97 fps. Quite a waste of stock but converted best to NTSC and from there to PAL. In PAL countries people are used to NTSC converted TV shows. It gives the show an "international" look.

Hans
 
While I understand the wisdom in Graeme's points, I also agree with Hans.

As a DP for the 10-Red camera production of the band "Journey Live in Manila", and the 6-Red camera production of the band "Heart: Live at Sky Church", I recommended we shoot 29.97 for both productions, which we did - and the results were really excellent. Those productions aired on VH1 and Palladia HD, receiving excellent reviews. Both have been released on DVD and Blue Ray, and sales have been brisk. I believe both will be (or already have been) converted for European distribution. I'm not a big fan of slower frame rates for high-action subject matter. These two programs had plenty of "filmic" feel to them - coupled with the smoothness of 29.97 acquisition.

No doubt there were some more "hoops" to jump through in the conversion from 29.97, but our goal with the productions wasn't to suspend reality in the audience - but rather to include them in the excitement of them almost being there - with the added organic qualities the Red One cameras could provide. We achieved that goal, and the success of the productions with the public has been validation of our approach and concept. As artists we can quibble endlessly about the tech end of productions, but if we aesthetically please our intended audience for the required delivery medium, and the production gets good ratings and sells well in ancillary revenue streams, then we've done our job - both as artists and business people.
 
Well, if the you run this through a serious conversion like Snell & Willcox, it should look good in PAL too. But I'm not sure the OP did count on that.
 
Uli Plank said:
Well, if the you run this through a serious conversion like Snell & Willcox, it should look good in PAL too. But I'm not sure the OP did count on that.
Click to expand...

I never did it myself. It were the pre-HD times, the days when FCP was just around the corner, Avid the NLE of choice and Henry/Flame the tools for finishing. DigiBeta was the shiny new format tape format for telecine and the conversion to PAL was done in specialized post houses that charged a fortune for that.

Nowadays, all those things can be done in a desktop. But I remember well that there was a BTS/Bosch denoiser/degrainer that often saved my butt when the footage was underexposed. The quality of this device is still second to none, unfortunately SD only.

Having specialized, proprietary devices is not always bad. The IT revolution has its downsides.

Hans
 
wow thanks every one for the responses

the thing is its going to 50htz and 60htz land sooo.. i think I might go with Graeme Nattress idea to shoot at 23.98 and then do the pulldown and the 4% speed up.. but if any one has much better Idea please share


thanks again!!
 
Martin Ubilluz said:
wow thanks every one for the responses

the thing is its going to 50htz and 60htz land sooo.. i think I might go with Graeme Nattress idea to shoot at 23.98 and then do the pulldown and the 4% speed up.. but if any one has much better Idea please share


thanks again!!
Click to expand...

I'd definitely listen to what Graeme is saying. One point to clarify: choose your timebase in relation to your local mains frequency. I'm sure this is what Graeme was getting at. You want your frame rate and shutter speeds to be an even match for the mains frequency to avoid lighting flicker.
 
172.8?

172.8?

John Marchant said:
I'd definitely listen to what Graeme is saying. One point to clarify: choose your timebase in relation to your local mains frequency. I'm sure this is what Graeme was getting at. You want your frame rate and shutter speeds to be an even match for the mains frequency to avoid lighting flicker.
Click to expand...

In the US 60Hz 144 degrees should work at 23.976?

But does 172.8 degrees show any filcker for 23.976 in 50Hz places?
 
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