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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Noisy Epic footage?

David Battistella said:
Please. Someone from red enter this thread and clear up some of this stuff or we all run the risk of pouring out MYTH instead of FACTS.

David
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+1

We got some miss information swirling.
 
After today's test I don't think anything is suspect with the camera in question at this time- it seems to have very similar noise as the other EpicX and appears to be superior in terms of noise than the R1MX (keep in mind comparing 5KFF to 4K 16x9). I stand by the original post I made in this thread with the footage that appears noisier than normal based on it's exposure and lighting conditions. I think something must have been up with the black shading that day. I have not been able to recreate the issue thus far.
 
Mark Toia said:




And Josh, No I don't ever use the histogram or clipping alerts... I just look at the monitors, touch screen or EVF and honestly... if the high lights are to hot or the sky looks blown out, i quite literally pull back until I get info (that I require) back on the screen.
If the image looks dark... I open up my aperture until I get all my black detail, or I put a brighter lens on... yes as simple as that.
Click to expand...

Well you got a magic bag that I would like to take a dip into and smoke a bit.

I have the Red 7" LCD and on the top there are brightness up and brightness down buttons that are constantly getting hit. When I first started using the camera I exposed shots based on this LCD. When I went to post, I soon found my error and sifted through many dark and noisy shots to totally blown out whites.

What I learned was use the monitor for reference and framing, then check the histogram and try not to get too far into the traffic lights. I found I can push it a little toward the right (lights) but not too far. Most of the images I've shot are located outdoor though I hardly think you would only be shooting inside, so you must have shot in similar environments.

I would like to understand your process and learn, if I can, from it. You make it sound so simple and for you, maybe it is.

I'm at your site now, which reels are shot on Red or Epic?
 
Eric Haase said:
After today's test I don't think anything is suspect with the camera in question at this time- it seems to have very similar noise as the other EpicX and appears to be superior in terms of noise than the R1MX (keep in mind comparing 5KFF to 4K 16x9). I stand by the original post I made in this thread with the footage that appears noisier than normal based on it's exposure and lighting conditions. I think something must have been up with the black shading that day. I have not been able to recreate the issue thus far.
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Sorry, Eric, I don't understand. You say you haven't been able to recreate the issue, yet that it is noisier and you stand by your original statement? What do you mean by not being able to recreate the issue?
 
Sergio Perez said:
Sorry, Eric, I don't understand. You say you haven't been able to recreate the issue, yet that it is noisier and you stand by your original statement? What do you mean by not being able to recreate the issue?
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I mean that in the original clip I posted I believe the shirt to be noisier than I would expect based on all conditions. In shooting subsequent tests with the camera (after black shading at least once for each test) I have not noticed the same level of noise in that tonal value range.
 
Mark Toia said:
Maybe you should get to know your cameras a bit better. :))) The word "EASY" is an understatement.
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Well your right, I never did name my camera. Maybe I'll name my new epic Mark T. :)

I used to shoot video on a Canon Powershot A610 with an underwater housing. It is a $250 still image camera with a short video record mode. That camera had perfect exposure, the camera adjusted everything for me, much like the GoPro today. The joy was getting cool underwater shots of my dogs romping around the river, editing the shots to create a story and sharing it with my friends.

The day I plugged my arm into the R1 I.V. Drip things got more complicated. It's the price for "world class" images. So I know it can be easy but a couple failed shoots quickly teaches quickly that it's time to focus and if you want to get the shot right, put some time into "getting to know your camera better."

A lot of people check this form to learn like we all have. The "spin the dial" until it looks right in your monitor can be miss leading to new users. There are many factors like sunlight glare, or the opposite that can throw off an LCD reading. The human eye can be miss leading too. Sometime in the monitor can look dark, yet the camera could be picking up the detail you can't see on a 7" monitor. It's 7", you will never get the full detail of 4k.

I cannot quantify nor discount your experience with your R1, it was easy for you, I struggled with it, we both had our paths. If I could give advice, I'd tell anyone trying to learn, use your in camera tools, your histogram, your traffic lights and your monitor. Together with editing and coloring your clips in post, you will find what is the right exposure for your process, your camera and lens choice.

Best to you Mark, maybe I could get a lesson from you kid sometime?
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Not that I CANNOT get noise, just that I know how to avoid it if that is desireable.
Click to expand...

Care to share some of your examples? I'm sure new users could benefit from your experience and advice.

Thanks
 
Eric Haase said:
After today's test I don't think anything is suspect with the camera in question at this time- it seems to have very similar noise as the other EpicX and appears to be superior in terms of noise than the R1MX (keep in mind comparing 5KFF to 4K 16x9). I stand by the original post I made in this thread with the footage that appears noisier than normal based on it's exposure and lighting conditions. I think something must have been up with the black shading that day. I have not been able to recreate the issue thus far.
Click to expand...

Yeah that's too bad, well you don't have a ghost in your machine, the answer is out there. thanks for starting the thread.
 
Eric Haase said:
I mean that in the original clip I posted I believe the shirt to be noisier than I would expect based on all conditions. In shooting subsequent tests with the camera (after black shading at least once for each test) I have not noticed the same level of noise in that tonal value range.
Click to expand...

Are you able to use the same shirt? Color is a strange thing. My buddy Carl Sagan, in his book Billions and Billions, taught me that light and color are not as they appear. Color is seen because the material, fabric in this case, absorbs that spectrum of light. Not that the shirt is that color but that the material is predisposed to adsorb that part of the light spectrum.

What if there is a material out there that creates more noise in our cameras? What is something like purple velvet has properties innate to that material that a purple cotton shirt would not?

I'm probably going out on a limb but for the hell of it, what is this trouble shirt made out of? In "recreating" this noise event, might you try using that shirt side by side with another of similar color?
 
so let me get this straight.
The camera is capturing at 250~320iso.
Changing the rating on the LCD changes the image as it appears on the LCD not what really is recorded.
So if I leave the LCD at 320 this should give me an idea of what is being recorded?
 
Yes Barry.

Or just set a button to raw view and switch between them. 320 iso best emulates RAW view and exactly what the sensor is seeing.
You can push that around to wherever you like in post with very little noise. If you clip highlights you won't be able to recover them.
 
Eric Haase said:
I mean that in the original clip I posted I believe the shirt to be noisier than I would expect based on all conditions. In shooting subsequent tests with the camera (after black shading at least once for each test) I have not noticed the same level of noise in that tonal value range.
Click to expand...

Eric, played around with your new, supplied r3d's in Redcine X pro and the difference in noise seems negligible...(Not much difference). looks like the Red MX shot is a "cropped" shot from the Epic one, in fact. Am I seeing wrong?
 
David Battistella said:
Sergio.

Thats the fov difference between 4k and 5k
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Yes, David, and maybe the perceived less noise is due to the fact one is seeing "cropped" and not the full 5K of the sensor like we see on the Epic? The noise patern seems the same but due to the crop, looks just a tiny bit- negligible- less noticeable (arguable, in fact)? Again, my own, pure, unscientific, not technically knowledgeable camera operator impression here...
 
Eric
hit me up if your still gonna do the test id like to provide some help if you dont mind along with 2 or 3 epics to see what kind of results we get with them.

Luis
805 822 9870
 
Barry Bishop said:
So does shutter/degree add noise to the R3D files?
Click to expand...


No.

only to the extent that the amount of light hitting (or not hitting) the sensor can contribute to increased noise.

If you use a shutter angle that limited exposure to the point that you are cutting a lot of light to the sensor then it can indeed contribute to noise.

David
 
If I set a WB and look on the EPIC and paste it onto the other EPIC shot it matches perfectly.
If I place that same look on the REDONE footage it does not match at all.This is all probably due to the different proccessing going on in each camera which is to be expected.
Strange...

Noise wise...just about the same..but cleaner all around on the EPIC
7:1 and RC 36
Image wise these cameras are both excellent. One is much lighter though. :)

David



Match_001.png





and here is the EPIC (which looks correct to me)


Match_002.png





PS:

I took the white balance from the third chip from the left in the grey chart.
David
 
Next question, does cropping in on an image add noise, artifacts ?
For example shooting at 2k instead of 5k.
 
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