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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Noisy Blue channel using Build 30

Pietro I agree, artifacts is definitely a more appropriate term. Multi-pixel patches both lighter and darker than the surrounding data. I'm very surprised that this issue isn't more talked about, if its happening on all M-sensor cameras with build 30... I'll just have to wait and see what Red say re: my support ticket, but no news yet.

One thing's for sure, if this were a grab from any other camera, this community wouldn't be giving it an easy time ;)
 
I am not trying to excuse it, pointed it out as B30 was in beta...

But the overall performace of B30 is still much better.
Both with B30 and B21 there is some "fiddling" happening in the blue channel compared to the older builds. There was ways in the development stage to get rid of that noise when going to DPXs etc, but they were really time-consuming for the workflow.

With B30 it mostly just works like one would think, without getting too hung up in the RAW format and its quirks.

Less geeky work for me. Better for the overall RED1 appearance.

And you could always go the B21 or earlier route for development with Clipfinder/RedRocket or other older tools.
 
Isnt it lovely? Here is our blue channel

firmware 30.5.0#30

firmware30.5.0%2330.jpg
 
I am concerned, and would like to hear an answer from RED.

I noted the same issues on a Build 30 camera, and the issue is not present on build 17 and 21, with the same camera.

I can happily shoot 21, or even 17 on this camera for now.

I'd also love to hear if a user or RED has confirmed that this is not an issue on Red MX cameras.
 
The advantage - exposure and camerawise - of shooting 30 over any other build is immense.

As to post...
It is not such an easy answer.

B15 could be as noisefree as B21 was, if you stuck to some rather rigorous rules in post. Actually, when it comes to noise, B30 is the least controllable of RED ones builds so far.

But that is only true if you adapt to a very RAW-centric workflow...

Default WB, lower exposure, redlog, lift/gamma to compensate for exposure loss.

For keys, these are still good pointers.

AND
Not only has the noise @ default settilngs become worse and the details more invisible, but the ways one earlier could controll noise, don't work as well as they used to.

Have a look here:
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=41980

RCX is using the FLUT colorscience, Clipfinder 21

So question remains, why am I still a big fan of B30?

well...
It just - overall works better, with keys maybe being the only exception...

Why?
Predictability.

If one uses the images "like one would like to use them" they are actually LESS noisy than previous builds.

That is:
For post:
Changing the WB away from 5600 does not dramatically reduce image quality and add noise

Fidling with the exposure/ISO settings does not dramatically reduce image quality and add noise to a larger extent than expected

Colors are "easier" to tune in and look more natural.

On set:
The cam is truer to itself. RedSpace was always a scandal. redcolor is almost as good as redspace was bad.

RAW view doesn't look appaling and is actually a very good preview option even under tungsten.

More exposure tools - alas not all - are RAW based.

All this is good.

Throw in a Linear view, and I'd be all dancing the voodoo song...

But both on set and in post - there is less voodoo and more "actions cause what I had expected and without some dramatic disadvantage" for "normal" use.

I love it!

Remember. Channel peaking is only good to look under the hood. An image consists most often of 3 channels, and that's the image we need to be happy or unhappy with...

All in all I am very happy with B30. Both for set and post.

And for those special occations, I'd rather go pre 21...
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Remember. Channel peaking is only good to look under the hood. An image consists most often of 3 channels, and that's the image we need to be happy or unhappy with...
Click to expand...

I disagree...

images are the summation of the three channels, and looking at individual channels is important for lots of different types of work.

For example, what if I am trying to key a sky? That's a common enough situation. What if I am doing a Levi's commercial and have to super saturate some blue jeans?

What if I am doing a fashion shoot and want to push purple?

What if I am doing a super blue look, perhaps as part of day for night, or just because I want a very cool look to my footage.

Looking at my compositing work, what if I am keying on a color separated channel- say a blue screen?

No, this is a huge issue.

This is a gap of some sort of a gap in the image data, and I can only assume its an artifact of the new software, because again the camera works fine with other builds. (It doesn't matter by the way which build of software I work with in post, just the camera firmware. Is that consistent with other users?)
 
Yup...

Def see your point...

And that's why I suggest pre 30 for keying and compositting.

At least to pull the keys...

I am one of the probably VERY few who miss B14/15

But for general use, B30 is the first to make me excited in a while...
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Yup...

Def see your point...

And that's why I suggest pre 30 for keying and compositting.

At least to pull the keys...

I am one of the probably VERY few who miss B14/15

But for general use, B30 is the first to make me excited in a while...
Click to expand...

Why build 14/15? Why not 17?

I thought if you upgraded from pre 16 to 16 or newer you had to stay with new firmware?

I use mostly 17, but I also will go into production on 21.

I like a lot of the features on b30, but haven't used it for production yet. I was about to, until I noted this thread and another which may be related.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48226

Correct me if I am wrong... but I thought we got a lot of the advantages of new color science and firmware just by using the updated post tools.

So, old firmware & updated software seems a solid compromise.

That's getting off the mark though- I'd still like to hear from RED about the blue channel on B30
 
Well...

The problems you see is from FLUT/B30 post, not B30 shooting.
These are "FLUT color science" post arttefacts...

Any build so far has had compromises.
The earlier builds were more geeky to get the most out of.
B30 is pretty straightforeward to get very good images out of.
I think that is a good choice, actually...

And then geeks can go backwards for post to get less noise, and more work on the colors...

This discussion is becomming more theoretical as more cams go MX.

My next test will be MX vs Alexa...

And my next gig will be MX.

B30 is kind of a compromise that includes more people. You can easier shoot and post generally very good images, while with the pre 21 builds you could harder post even better images.

B30, in some ways - becomes an even stronger argument for MX.

But is that bad?

Generally, I think: No. More people are having a good time with their REDs.

Cool!

For compositing/keying, though - I would at least pull the mattes from an earlier build.

But that is rather specific knowledge and not really needed for everyone...

Because if you auto (or manually) WB pre 21 to tungsten, you'll generate so much noise in the blue channel that the above statement would no longer be valid. And a lot of people used to expose, shoot and post with such WB settings. It is rather counterintuitive a lot of the things you had to do in the previous builds to get a good result.

With B30 you can do what is intuitively "right" and still get a "good" result and the colors will be "easy" to post. The keys aren't that bad either...

See what I mean?

Less voodoo, more useability for the general user.

I likeee
 
"The problems you see is from FLUT/B30 post, not B30 shooting"

Thats mean- shot in B30, then post with old tools?

Regards
Chan Chi Ying
DP HK
 
cyc901 said:
"The problems you see is from FLUT/B30 post, not B30 shooting"

Thats mean- shot in B30, then post with old tools?

Regards
Chan Chi Ying
DP HK
Click to expand...

You shoot RAW. That could be an option... at least to pull a difficult key.

But:
for me?
Well, no - honestly.

Going f. ex. iso 160 (or exposure -1) /redlog and compensating with brightness/curves to pull out the dynamics will still throw away most noise, the added bonus of B30, is that whiteballancing doesn't HURT your image. That is quite a timesaver. AND the colometry is beautifull from get-go.

Less work. More predictable results, easier to work with.

Nope, I am a big B30 advocate from set to post. But there is a small resolution hit and a bit more noise @ what was previously "optimum noise settings".

For that price, shooting and post for most scenarios has improved and sped up immensely.

And if you didn't know how to make pre 21 images noisefree, you're much better off with 30.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
You shoot RAW. That could be an option... at least to pull a difficult key.

But:
for me?
Well, no - honestly.

Going f. ex. iso 160 (or exposure -1) /redlog and compensating with brightness/curves to pull out the dynamics will still throw away most noise, the added bonus of B30, is that whiteballancing doesn't HURT your image. That is quite a timesaver. AND the colometry is beautifull from get-go.

Less work. More predictable results, easier to work with.

Nope, I am a big B30 advocate from set to post. But there is a small resolution hit and a bit more noise @ what was previously "optimum noise settings".

For that price, shooting and post for most scenarios has improved and sped up immensely.

And if you didn't know how to make pre 21 images noisefree, you're much better off with 30.
Click to expand...

All I know is that what I thought I was looking at is not consistent with what you are describing.

That said, what you are describing makes sense, so I need to redo my tests.

Frak.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Well...

The problems you see is from FLUT/B30 post, not B30 shooting.
These are "FLUT color science" post arttefacts...
Click to expand...

How is this right when I can get an artifact free blue channel shooting build 21 and using the latest RCX to process?

I've tried everything to make it go away under b30, including your suggested technique of dropping the exposure or ISO and boosting afterwards, but it really makes no difference. I'm still left with a blue channel I really can't push much, as the shadows are full of little black holes.

I'm surprised nobody from Red has chipped in here, even if its just to say 'Yes they all do that sir, use b21' :violin:
 
Hi John,

I was wondering if you or any others here have come to any other conclusion or if there was any further word from RED?

I'm on an M R1, currently B21, and would like to move to B30, but haven't had time to do any testing and would value your further opinion.

Thanks!
 
I noticed this "speckling" a couple of weeks ago when preparing for a music video shoot. Back then I thought the footage was simply extremely noisy because I was lighting the dark test shoot with Tungsten lights without blue gels. This thread explains what was actually happening; thank you Mr. Marchant for raising this issue.

I look forward to installing the new beta and checking whether the speckling is gone, or severely reduced, at the very least.
 
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