No more FF35 Scarlet?

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Why do people dismiss 2/3" as having no DOF flexibility at all? As if it is the same as the 1/4"-1/3" prosumer cams out there now. This is not the case. 16mm-2/3" format is capable of a useful and pleasant range of DOF flexibility when handled properly. Shallow DOF is possible. . . .

. . . Despite the fact that motion picture shooting formats have gone as large as 70mm/IMAX, the current popular formats, S35mm and 16mm/s16mm/2/3" have prevailed because they best fit the practical requirements of the craft. Especially with the currently popular shooting styles that involve a lot of dynamic camera movement, FF35 and larger formats become impractical because one can not get enough DOF under normal shooting conditions.

I agree, DOF with 16 mm and 2/3" can be reasonably shallow if desired. Although it may require some experimentation, if need be, you can focus on a point a little in front of your subject, which will shorten the DOF behind the subject. The 2/3" format permits shallow DOF when desired but also allows for deeper focus where focus pulling might be a nightmare (e.g., run-and-gun action sequences, particularly in relatively low light). FF35, on the other hand, does not allow for easy deep DOF in similar shooting conditions.

FF35 is essentially the same as the old VistaVision format, which ILM resurrected for effects work on the original Star Wars and Indiana Jones films. Why? The format had a smaller relative grain size, there was a wealth of cheap, high quality Nikkor lenses, and a still camera (often with a 100-ft. bulk film back) could be mounted to easily move within a miniature set. Inherently shallower DOF, however, was not a reason. But with a tightly controlled lighting situation (e.g., studio lights, time-lapse exposures), the requisite small apertures were more easily achievable.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

All the speculation and drama.

I think the FF35 Scarlet makes a whole lot of sense. In fact, I think it makes more sense than an FF35 Epic - or at least as the cameras were announced way back when. Of the cameras announced with the Monstro sensor, the one I would think to be the most expendable would be the EPIC FF35 since the EPIC 645 is so much more camera for not much more money.

Based on the Monstro announcement and all the hoopla in late '08 / early '09, I would have wanted the Epic 645, Scarlet FF35 and probably a couple fixed-lens 2/3" Scarlets. Done.

But it has all taken a good bit longer for these cameras to materialize and specs keep changing. The market keeps changing too. Most of my clients still live in an HD world and I don't do narrative cinema production, other than an occasional for-fun project. The 645 and possibly the 617 are definitely on the table for me, if I have the budget when they arrive, since I do a lot of work that could really benefit from the larger sensor area and medium format properties. But for the rest, the Scarlet 2/3" fixed and interchangeable are going to be a perfect fit.

I think everyone needs to relax a bit.

All things subject to change and we're hypothesizing about cameras based on a sensor that doesn't even exist yet.

I too dream of FF35 Epic with anamorphic lenses, but I'll skip right over that one if the EPIC 645 is just around the corner.

 

[Philipe Ratton]

I think there is going to be a huge market for the FF35 scarlet. I'm one of the buyers for sure, and I guess that for places like Brazil (where I live), its a most welcome and affordable solution.

 

[Joseph Ward]

I think the FF35 Scarlet makes a whole lot of sense. In fact, I think it makes more sense than an FF35 Epic - or at least as the cameras were announced way back when. Of the cameras announced with the Monstro sensor, the one I would think to be the most expendable would be the EPIC FF35 since the EPIC 645 is so much more.

I also agree, FF35 Scarlet makes more sense since it would be geared more for photographers, as far as price. Not to say motion won't but at Reds initial price point for a Scarlet FF35 this is a no brainer. The Epics 645 and 617 would be for the Medium to Large format crowd but Epic FF35 would be better suited for Cine. The FF35 Scarlet is what I will get and later get Epic 645 and 617.

Just my $2(due to inflation and depreciation).

 

[David Rasberry]

I think FF35 Scarlet will get here eventually, but at least 18 months to two years away. Monstro is the next gen after X and we have seen nothing of it yet, not even test bed shots.

 

[toke lahti]

16mm-2/3" format is capable of a useful and pleasant range of DOF flexibility when handled properly.

Yep,
and IF the camera would be a real DSMC, it should handle both motion and stills.
Here comes the problems. 2/3" is good for ENG, events, documentary & hand-held. But it sure isn't enough for even serious hobbyist for stills. 2/3" Scarlet won't have enough resolution to compete with much cheaper still cameras.
FF35 will be too big frame for many of us for motion work. And the glass is very heavy.
And what's the point for buying DSMC that costs double the price that two different cameras for motion and stills together.
Specialized camera for one type of shooting will always be better for just that one thing, so benefit of having DSMC should primarily be economics.

I think that S35 is the sweet spot for all-around DSMC.
I guess that idea of DSMC is, that you don't need different camera for every situation, but instead one camera handles everything.
Most professional photographers used APS-C for years and many still do.
So there's no problem to shoot great stills with S35.

For me, if I'd buy DSMC, it would also need to be versatile with motion. For long hand-held work those big (S)16mm 5xzooms that weight over 5kg aren't gonna do it. So I would have 2/3" ENG lens for that and shoot with cropped frame with S35 camera. And when it comes to more expensive shots, I've would rent some S35 optics.
Owning the basic rig and renting the special ones sounds good.

So what I would really like if Red would customize one ENG lens for Scarlet, that would have about 12x zoom, 2x extender and built in ND filters. That would be good enough for my budget for 95% of my shootings. And also renting the camera for fellows.

But because it looks like it will be much cheaper to carry 5Dmk2 for stills and scarlet2/3" for motion, I think I'm going to do that. That fixed 8x zoom without extender and ND just makes me wonder...

 

[morgan_moore]

Being from a stills background and a Hasselblad owner I used to be DOF nut - hating nikon until they realead the D3

Over time I have realised that chip size is not that important GIVEN a correctly matched set of lenses

Trouble is in the stills world the lenses dont exist

a 24-70 2.8 for example gives a reasonable look on a FF sensor and probably performs very sharply at f4

to get that kind of feel on a APS C sensor - S35 one would need a 16-30 1.8 that performed at F2

does such exist - maybe in the $10k cine lens market but not in the stills world

My 5d I shoot mostly at 4-5.6 while my 7d only looks good at 2.8 or preferably 2

This seriously restricts my range of glass and pushes cost of same

You can go to the local pawn shop and pick up glass for $100 that will make a 5d look great - not so the 7

Two lenses I got recently 35-70 nikkor -$80, 100-300 nikkor $100

Wonderful smooth focus manual that look great on the 5 and cr4p on the 7

To conclude an S35 would be acceptable - even for stills but only with some new glass that exchanges image circle for speed

1Ds4 size chip would be a nice compromise

sorry to mention the C word but they are a good FOV checker !

----

As a convergance photographer my personal goal is 1080RAW and overcranking before 5k


S

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I think the reason we haven't seen any FF35 announcements are just because they're keeping their heads down trying to work out the kinks in their products which are already behind schedule by 6-12 months.

I do hope however that we get a spec bump out of the delay. Actually I would prefer a weight drop if possible. The only thing I'm not love with in regard to the FF35 is its size. It looks a little chubby. I would prefer it to be smaller so that it's easier to handle while traveling, moving in and out of vehicles etc. It's ?4? ribs right now. If they could get it down to 3 ribs like the S35 that would be fantastic.

Also I'm hoping that RED is taking anamorphic really seriously and the FF35 camera is going to be the camera to sell it. I think it's safe to assume that both the eGlass and the Anamorphic is going to be tailor made for the Monstro line. I doubt the electrical engineering challenges have put a big roadblock in their optical department so this just gives them more time to create an even more closely matched pairing. I'm hoping RED's entry into the Anamorphic space changes their mind on desqueeze being Epic-Only. All around I would prefer to be handling my FF35 right now but maybe this delay will iron out the handful of weak points in the Scarlet FF35. A super highspeed 2k/3k mode would be welcome as well but that's just probably expecting too much. I think DeSqueeze is well within the realm of possibility and maybe if we're lucky a slight shrinking.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I don't know why so much speculation has turned to the Scarlet FF. The fact s that there has been no new info on any of the proposed future chips for a long time.

Sure one reason is bound to be the fact that they are extremely busy trying to perfect the systems that actually exist, but another reason is one that Jim stated quite clearly; There will be no new announcements RE new gear until they are closer to releasing it... End of story.

I wish folks would stop running about shouting "Fire! Fire!"

 

[Joseph Hutson]

I don't know why so much speculation has turned to the Scarlet FF. The fact s that there has been no new info on any of the proposed future chips for a long time.

Sure one reason is bound to be the fact that they are extremely busy trying to perfect the systems that actually exist, but another reason is one that Jim stated quite clearly; There will be no new announcements RE new gear until they are closer to releasing it... End of story.

I wish folks would stop running about shouting "Fire! Fire!"

I think a lot of what you have to say is good, however I don't see a number of threads popping up all over the forum all anxious to hear the latest about the FF35 brain and how it will relate in the family of DSMC's.

It's kind of hard to give enough thanks to RED for their dedication without being too repetitive. For a lot of us (like me), we are on REDuser because we as a member "count" in the eyes of the RED team.

In April-December 2008, we (REDuser/ScarletUser Members) were a people who brought up questions like:

• Why can't we have a Scarlet with an interchangeable lens?
• What happens after 2-3 years of using our 2/3" Fixed Scarlet is in need of an upgrade to larger sensor sizes and higher framerates?
• What approach can/will RED take by rendering obsolescence obsolete, after 3 years? Will we be sending in our old Scarlet chassis to undergo a renewal upon the Monstro's arrival?

This collaboration is the result of one of the most famous RECON posts of all time (second only to October 2009's announcement thread) that changed the whole outlook of modularity and showcased RED's vision. This thread is now known to us as "Testing... testing."

Personally, I think what we are seeing in this thread is not some useless ramblings (and I know you didn't come out so harsh as to say anything like that), but rather we are placing our thoughts before the RED team on the projected Scarlet FF35 as they undergo there own private discussions.

Does this make sense?

 

[Joseph Hutson]

And before anybody starts complaining about the "EST release dates" and how far off RED is, and how terrible they are at hitting their projections, lets go to yet another one of Jim's great RECON posts that give us some insight of what goes on behind closed doors...

For those of you that can't quite comprehend the complexity of what we are trying to do... consider that there are 70 boards and 11,000 pieces on an EPIC-X (with modules).

Just food for thought while you are waiting...

Jim

And believe me when I say "it's probably gotten yet a bit more complicated in the last 5 months..."

 

[toke lahti]

Over time I have realised that chip size is not that important GIVEN a correctly matched set of lenses

Trouble is in the stills world the lenses dont exist

a 24-70 2.8 for example gives a reasonable look on a FF sensor and probably performs very sharply at f4

to get that kind of feel on a APS C sensor - S35 one would need a 16-30 1.8 that performed at F2

does such exist - maybe in the $10k cine lens market but not in the stills world

My 5d I shoot mostly at 4-5.6 while my 7d only looks good at 2.8 or preferably 2

Well, you could do wonders just by taking a step forward or backwards (at least if you're using a zoom).
As you know, it's just all about relative distance of picture's subject and picture's background.
So with crop factor of 1.6x you'd need 1.6 stops more to get same DOF, but how often does it matter that DOF is 30cm and not 50cm?

Or you can pay $5k for that shallower DOF...

 

[Emanuel A.]

The premise of this thread is just ridiculous or is it just me?

 

[Andrew Rieger]

The premise of this thread is just ridiculous or is it just me?

Not ridiculous, Everyone here hangs on Jim's every syllable so it is easy how people could imply that the FF35 was dead based on one of Jim's comments. I believe that Red understands the importance of the FF35 Scarlet and Epic. A friend of mine is a photojournalist and there is a great deal of competition to be in the right place at the right time. Canon and Red are blurring the line between stills and motion and publishers and websites are looking for both and are much more likely to hire someone who can do both. Photographers will certainly want full frame especially so they can get the most out of their wides. The FF35 was also sort of advertised as the camera for both stills and motion, where the S35 and 2/3 were advertised as cinema cams. I'm sure the FF35 is still on the table but how far away is anyone's guess.

The big questions that still remain are about the specifics of the Red picture format. I believe that it has been confirmed that the stills mode uses .R3D. What we do not know is if you can take single frames or burst frames like a traditional camera, or if you shoot video and extract stills like you do with the Red One. I would love it if Red would elaborate but the stills mode is still one of the mysteries of the DSMC system, along with the low light performance of the 2/3 chip.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Not ridiculous, Everyone here hangs on Jim's every syllable so it is easy how people could imply that the FF35 was dead based on one of Jim's comments.

True. So, maybe the ridicule may be on this.

However, there's always something called 'context' which anyone should imply on it or any quote from him or someone else here (or anywhere else).

 

[Andrew Rieger]

I guess since he knows the most about what is going on with his company, we tend to pay A LOT of attention when he speaks. Nothing wrong with that, we may tend to over analyze.

 

[rod bradley]

Emanuel, I don't think it's just you. Especially in regard to DOP differences between super35 & FF sensors.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Why do people dismiss 2/3" as having no DOF flexibility at all? As if it is the same as the 1/4"-1/3" prosumer cams out there now. This is not the case. 16mm-2/3" format is capable of a useful and pleasant range of DOF flexibility when handled properly. Shallow DOF is possible. It isn't FF35 by any means but it is worlds apart from the limitations of the smaller sensor formats.

Over my varied and long career I have shot both stills and motion in about every common film and electronic format out there from 4x5 on down.
The demands of cinematography where you have a very limited range of frame rates and exposure times that are of practical use require a very different creative approach than stills photography. Despite the fact that motion picture shooting formats have gone as large as 70mm/IMAX, the current popular formats, S35mm and 16mm/s16mm/2/3" have prevailed because they best fit the practical requirements of the craft. Especially with the currently popular shooting styles that involve a lot of dynamic camera movement, FF35 and larger formats become impractical because one can not get enough DOF under normal shooting conditions.

If one wants to capture motion sequences using still photo techniques for extraction of stills as the end product, that is a very different thing. Studio fashion photography comes to mind for example.

Yes, absolutely true. Many popular TV shows are shot on 2/3rds such as Community and 30 Rock - and they look fine.

 

[toke lahti]

What IF,
there would be 4k S16 (15 x 10 mm) version of Scarlet for $4,500
or
Scarlet One 4.5k (Red One sized sensor) for $5,000
?

Anybody interested?

 

[Joseph Hutson]

What IF,
there would be 4k S16 (15 x 10 mm) version of Scarlet for $4,500
or
Scarlet One 4.5k (Red One sized sensor) for $5,000
?

Anybody interested?

Nope not interested. It'd mean another 3 years for RED to change their vision and further delaying their current plans. So, no...not interested.