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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

No monitor out support being even planned

ThomtheEditor

ThomtheEditor

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I met with someone from the red team this week and official word is that RedCine is a "tool" not a professional solution and that while external monitoring via kona would be ideal for us to use it as such, no monitoring solution is being planned into future Redcine builds.
"Not that it will never happen, but it's not even being discussed at the current time."
 
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just that it's official that they aren't even discussing offering this feature that would help make redcine an actual usable product for the post professional that wants to process their own footage.
 
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that's precisely my point though, we shouldn't have to work-around to make it work. Right now you can't monitor your footage without slapping down money for scratch or a redboxx, and while the boxx runs some impressive numbers the $35k price-point for a machine that can't output pro-res isn't practical.

We on the post side have to finagle things to make the red work for us, it's either time consuming, impractical, expensive, or settling for a lower quality product; depending on which route you take (redcine, proxies, scratch, L&T respectively).

I'm just venting, blah.
 
The coming native support in Color, Premiere, AE and support of the Kona 3 card may help this matter.

bob
 
Does RedCine even support a waveform? Maybe an RGB Parade or something? I haven't messed with it that much as it's been unstable for me and I've opted to go down other paths (REDrushes, proxies, etc).

It is annoying that there isn't anyway to output it now which is bad later when you want to conform and can't view what you're doing in RedCine to your color, blacks etc. It's called a 'first light'. But who would do a first light without a properly calibrated monitor or waveforms?

I feel you Thom. I though that feature was planned to be on the way...
 
I love Scratch for now, but it will be like Avid in near future.

Too expensive for the high end, and too little feature on the mid range, and nothing on the low.

Then goes the way of the dinosaurs.

Scratch Cine is 20K and no curves.

Ouch. Price yourself out, to shoot one in the foot.

I have been singing the RED+Scratch song for a long time now, but when Smoke, Pablo, and SpeedGrade support R3d files.

I will have to do some homework and thinking.

Tek
 
Just one-lights...

Just one-lights...

It is for this reason, and the fact there is no RGB parade or vector-scopes with in Redcine that it really is only a 1-light transcoding tool. I take my transcodes, import into FCP (built in WFM/VEC, KONA output) and use the 3-way cc or send to Color or Shake for final color correction. Redcine is not a 3 way CC, and should not be used as the final means of grading the image, it's a transcode tool with some good color space and gamma conversion and some basic cc tools. :weight_lift:
 
ThomtheEditor said:
that's precisely my point though, we shouldn't have to work-around to make it work. Right now you can't monitor your footage without slapping down money for scratch or a redboxx,
Click to expand...

Oh, woe is me. Boo hoo. I can't have everything I want for free. What an awful world.

Please. You paid for your computer, right? You paid for the camera, correct? You paid for your lenses, too? You even paid for your Final Cut Studio package? What makes you think something like a finishing tool should be free?
 
part of the promised "red revolution" was a revolution on the post side as well, i have sung these praises in the past, but instead of a post revolution we now have just a pain in the ass and a shot in the foot;

and i would have paid money for a redboxx if it could actually handle pro-res as that's what everyone wants these days, but it can't, so why bother with an extra gen of transcoding for $35k not worth it.

I'm willing to pay, but only for things that make sense; and right now the only digital-telecine solution for macs is redcine. i would actually pay for the software if the bugs were fixed and we could preview thru kona or blackmagic or whatever (hell i'd even fork over the money for multiple licenses if it could even render as efficiently as RA/RL/RR); but my point is that this functionality is not even being discussed.
 
Red is shifting the burden...SDK

Red is shifting the burden...SDK

ThomtheEditor said:
part of the promised "red revolution" was a revolution on the post side as well, i have sung these praises in the past, but instead of a post revolution we now have just a pain in the ass and a shot in the foot;

and i would have paid money for a redboxx if it could actually handle pro-res as that's what everyone wants these days, but it can't, so why bother with an extra gen of transcoding for $35k not worth it.

I'm willing to pay, but only for things that make sense; and right now the only digital-telecine solution for macs is redcine. i would actually pay for the software if the bugs were fixed and we could preview thru kona or blackmagic or whatever; but my point is that this functionality is not even being discussed.
Click to expand...

It seems like RED is shifting the burden of finding a professional full featured solution to third parties via the SDK. Clearly they don't want to assume the responsibilities of creating software beyond what they already have done, the money for RED is in the cameras. These beta releases of Redcine and Red Alert have been out of necessity so that editors have some kind of tools, which ultimately translates to more rentals and sales of the cameras, more of a foothold in the production side.

So we wait... Scratch and Redboxx are unrealistic for a lot of facilites that don't exclusively work in RED. They are not the only options, or at least not for long.

Until more flexible options appear, there are workarounds, like my previous post described, that can get around an all in one app solution. I do not consider Redcine the end of the CC pipeline in my workflow. Its a raw correction tool and transcoder, not much more.
 
ThomtheEditor said:
and i would have paid money for a redboxx if it could actually handle pro-res as that's what everyone wants these days, but it can't, so why bother with an extra gen of transcoding for $35k not worth it.
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ProRes is not what everyone wants. Much of the editing world - particularly in the professional ranks - works in Avid, where ProRes means nothing. Another part of the post world finishes via videotape formats - which is exactly what ScratchCine was designed to accommodate. That doesn't create an "extra generation of transcoding," it basically decodes the R3d file and outputs uncompressed HD video. If anything, it avoids another generation of transcoding if you're using it the way it's intended to be used.

If it doesn't do anything for you, that's fine. But that doesn't make it "not worth it" for others who can make very good use of it.
 
ThomtheEditor said:
and i would have paid money for a redboxx if it could actually handle pro-res as that's what everyone wants these days, but it can't, so why bother with an extra gen of transcoding for $35k not worth it.
Click to expand...

Everyone I know wants DPX or TIF really. Others would like DNxHD. Not many want ProRes.

If you want ProRes then you should hammer on Apple's door. It was their decision to make it a Mac-only and completely locked in codec.

So far as I am aware it is absolutely impossible to legally have ProRes installed without having a full FCP license. So no ProRes output from After Effects workstations.

Apple should follow Avid's lead with ProRes (seeing as it's almost identical to DNxHD anyway) and make it a freely available multi-platform codec. Hell, DNxHD is even a SMPTE standard.
 
Completely agree with Sycophant & Mike here.

RedCine is not a finishing tool, nor was it designed or touted to be one. The workflow for Red is simple and effective, though rather limited at this time. Also, if you want a finishing solution that includes ProRes, it's here today. Think about it... Scratch has SDI output. Macs w. Kona have SDI input... hmmmm... smells like realtime ProRes encoding to me, and no rocket science involved. Just goes to show - a little imagination and creative problem solving and just about anything is possible.

Don't like what's out there now? You have the power to save yourself from misery and hold off until 3rd party solutions that satisfy your needs become available. But I think expecting Red, a camera manufacturer, to develop sophisticated finishing software is misguided.

Red is a camera company. The software out now is a wonderful stop-gap for camera users, but if you're looking for a professional finishing solution, don't hold your breath waiting for it to come from a camera manufacturer.


JT
 
prores is certainly not what everybody wants - its incompatible with almost anything, only 4:2:2, not crossplatform, to expensive (1000$ a seat for a codec...), and iirc also restricted to YUV.

Its a decent option for TV, hdtv and YUV-formats, especially in smaller houses who dont have to network with autodesk/discreet, avid, quantel, adobe etc.

A monitor out in redcine - and be it only on the 2nd monitor - is something missing for almost anyone.

speedgrade xr (at 14.999) or scratch (at 60.000 somewhat) are not an option for the majority of red-users - especially not for those on the road, rental customers etc.

however with the coming adobe support (if its transcoding as fast as rc) things should become quite better.
 
...and as usual a little bit of information turns into a crucifixion around here.

Was just trying to pass along a little official information and how that might be an annoyance from someone who posts with Red (and all of it's idiosyncrasies, annoyances, and limitations) every day; however it's worth it b/c we all know what the end product looks like, how excellent it is for vfx work, how versatile and malleable it is...and most importantly how this is just the tip of the redvolution.

So take my information as bitching, whatever, especially since this is the redcine room, not the redboxx, or scratch room...foolish me, thinking people might want to hear an update here.

Peace
~T
 
laguun said:
prores is certainly not what everybody wants - its incompatible with almost anything, only 4:2:2, not crossplatform, to expensive (1000$ a seat for a codec...), and iirc also restricted to YUV.
Click to expand...

This prores discussion is a good one. All the info is true about it not being the highest quality option #1, and there's the fact that it is a closed codec most of all, but my gut reaction from reading and talking about all this RED post is that maybe 75% of RED jobs these days go to ProRes as an early step and stay there. Something about that bothers me. We don't want prores used so much that people being to think it's a "standard." Plus it's so tied to Final Cut Studio you really limit your post options. Prores is a good codec but we've done side by side tests on a DaVinci and there are advantages to finishing with DPXs but since it can be a hassle I think many people just don't bother.... or don't understand there are other options since RED is so tied to Apple and Apple is ProRes and you can then do it all right on your desktop. Who needs an editor, and an online, and a colorist when it's all in one box 'eh?
 
ThomtheEditor said:
Right now you can't monitor your footage without slapping down money for scratch or a redboxx
Click to expand...

Who do you think made REDCINE :biggrin:

It will all be fine down the line, plenty of options will be there sooner then later.
 
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