No longer on the fence, I'm all in

[Joe Walker]

After hearing the specs for the new Panasonic camera, and attempting to make my suggestions on another thread for things that could make it better, I have decided that it is business as usual with that company and I'm totally on board for an S35 Scarlet. I'm sick and tired of this mentality with these old companies that higher framerates, better codecs, and basic digital cinema camera features are to be reserved for the high end lines. That is so vintage 2000. Nothing new really, just thought I'd say what's already being said all over.

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

I dont understand why Panasonic choose to go backward. Dvc pro hd is not the gratest and I aspected them to release something more high end. Instead the go with more compressed solution. Who cares anyway. I know what I want! Havn't decided if it's fixed or not yet thoe. Waiting to see if its pop up any nice interchangeable packages before the release. If not I go with the fixed as a starting point. I must ad that Im truely thanksful to panasonic for hvx200 but lot things happened since then, and you just can't compare it to reds open philosophy. Looking forward to join the red famila!!

 

[Jody Neckles]

I understand what you mean.... I assume you are a film maker....

Panasonic are not about Digital Cinema.... they are all about Broadcast and also crossed over into high end television. They make great cameras that do what they do very well. You will not see Broadcasters switching there production teams to shoot on RED Scarlet, based on today's workflow, it just doesn't make sense. If RED allowed to record native MXF (the standard format for broadcast distribution and archiving) that would be a different story.

With a Panasonic camera you can shoot onto a P2 card connect to a laptop and edit. Supported codecs such as AVC-Intra are now becoming standard for collaborative editing and delivery to transmission. Panasonic have worked hard with vendors like Avid, Viz, EVS to have their technology supported for collaborative workflows for asset management, immediate access in the editing software, rendering at AVC-Intra and delivery to transmission at AVC-Intra.

RED have sooooo much work to do to have this level of integration and industry acceptance... it hasn't even dented this market.... I work with dozens of major broadcasters that have not even heard about RED.... and those who have don't care....

Panasonic are just very happy and comfortable where they are... they have a very nice share of the broadcast market, their products produce decent pictures and they have a very very fast workflow and ubiquitous support throughout the NLE and asset management world... the same cannot be said for RED...

.... But i've learnt not to underestimate RED and I haven't forgotten RED have Stuart English who I believe was the P2 workflow wizard at Panasonic... would love to hear your thoughts.... :smile5:

 

[Jim Retar]

Well, Panasonic are pretty open to customer suggestions, so I would expect some changes by the time the final product comes out. I know a fair few people are asking for a P2/AVC Intra based model, at extra cost.

Codec aside.... 1-60fps is likely and cinema features are very likely. With a few tweaks, it could be a great digital cinema camera....

But like you, I am hoping for news on Scarlet s35.... if there are signs that it will be likely to ship within 12-18 months, i'll hold on.

 

[Joe Walker]

Unfortunately, I found out that 1-60 fps will not be supported in 1080, Panasonic is sticking with their usual 24p only, 30p only, and 60i only at that resolution.

 

[JohnF]

Panasonic are not about Digital Cinema.... they are all about Broadcast

As someone who has worked a lot in the broadcast market I personally think that the new generation of cameras from the "big names" are, more often than not, a technological missed opportunity (especially the, IMO, restrictive codecs though 3rd party products like the FlashXDR do help alleviate this) and more importantly over priced bearing in mind market conditions (even before the crash).

I and many other colleagues out there will simply not bother buying these camera bodies as they aren't going to make enough money back from the investment (we'll just hire them as required). Plus they are often not versatile enough to meet contemporary producer demands.

RED's on the other hand do meet our requirements (price/features/quality) and the Scarlet 2/3rd" is probably going to make a big dent in the market once released.

Workflows with RED's are getting easier all the time and with the announcement of products like the H264 module (which is an ENG stringers dream) I have a feeling that things really are going to change.

That said a great deal of broadcast output is shot on the "big name" cameras and the conservative nature of the industry will slow the take up of new gear until it becomes a "big name" itself.

Which RED seems to be doing quite well at becoming...

JohnF

 

[Jim Retar]

They just launched $1000 cameras with 1080/60p.... so it could feature. Check the thread on DVX... they seem to be taking in alot of input.

If RED launched the Scarlet s35 with 24/25/30p, i'd grab one anyway. I'm not sold too much on overcrank.

I think we are gonna see a massive over saturation of slow motion work in the next year or so.

Unfortunately, I found out that 1-60 fps will not be supported in 1080, Panasonic is sticking with their usual 24p only, 30p only, and 60i only at that resolution.

 

[JohnF]

I think we are gonna see a massive over saturation of slow motion work in the next year or so.

I think we're starting to see the beginning of this here in the UK!

JohnF

 

[Joe Walker]

I'm not sold too much on overcrank.

I shoot commercials, corporate videos, music videos, short films...just about everything you can imagine, and let me tell you, overcrank is highly necessary for alot of my work.

JohnF, you have summed up best what my lack of articulation could not have made clearer.

 

[Lee Saxon]

I think we are gonna see a massive over saturation of slow motion work in the next year or so.

I just wanna scream every time I see one of these "the unwashed masses shouldn't be offered X feature 'cause they won't use it right" posts.

 

[Jody Neckles]

As someone who has worked a lot in the broadcast market I personally think that the new generation of cameras from the "big names" are, more often than not, a technological missed opportunity (especially the, IMO, restrictive codecs though 3rd party products like the FlashXDR do help alleviate this) and more importantly over priced bearing in mind market conditions (even before the crash).

I and many other colleagues out there will simply not bother buying these camera bodies as they aren't going to make enough money back from the investment (we'll just hire them as required). Plus they are often not versatile enough to meet contemporary producer demands.

RED's on the other hand do meet our requirements (price/features/quality) and the Scarlet 2/3rd" is probably going to make a big dent in the market once released.

JohnF

I agree with you John, the Scarlet will probably cause major upsets with the big camera manufactures and it certainly seems like an attractive long term investment.

However I doubt broadcaster would consider buying legions of Scarlets for use as staple ENG cameras for the following reasons:

- todays RED workflows are too complex
- todays RED workflows are too time consuming
- todays RED file formats are in the wrong file format and codec for broadcast Asset management, transmission and archive technologies.

Broadcasters just want to shoot, edit and deliver as quickly as possible with no hassle. Sony and Panasonic are well positioned and experienced to continue meeting these needs. Broadcasters and 3rd party manufacturers have invested very heavily in networking and collaborative infrastructure built around camera formats such as XDCAM EX and P2. RED have an incredible amount of work to do to catch up with the big guys on this front.

But what will broadcasters want in a few years time??...... well who knows?? .... I hope we will be watching BSKYB and ESPN live sports broadcasts on s3D 4K boxes with RED RRD ASCIs in them? ;-)

All the best

....

 

[Jim Retar]

I just wanna scream every time I see one of these "the unwashed masses shouldn't be offered X feature 'cause they won't use it right" posts.

Scream all you want... but as you do, take into account I didn't mention that they should take it away, just that it will naturally get overused.

 

[JohnF]

Broadcasters and 3rd party manufacturers have invested very heavily in networking and collaborative infrastructure built around camera formats such as XDCAM EX and P2. RED have an incredible amount of work to do to catch up with the big guys on this front.

Yes, I hear a lot about this too but I cannot help but notice that (in the UK anyway) the broadcast "workhorse" cameras are still the Sony Z1 and other DVCAM based cams!

And it was only five years ago that the the same claims about difficult workflows were made about XDCAM and P2 etc.

Yep RED do have some work to do but their format now has a lot going for it.

1. With the H264 module a low datarate 1080 quick-to-view/send deliverable.

2. A 3K to 5K RAW archive file that will stand the test of time that technological change brings just as did 16mm and 35mm. This makes it a very attractive investment for those interested in long term sales of their material. (ie news networks)

3. Being a non-medium specific (tape/disk/solid state etc) data format means that that it can be relatively easily be incorporated into a broadcasters IT system.

All the best

JohnF

 

[Lee Saxon]

Scream all you want... but as you do, take into account I didn't mention that they should take it away, just that it will naturally get overused.

Fair enough, I shouldn't have assumed that's what you were implying. I take it back!