Nikon mount question

[Steve Gibby]

Mike,

I already understand the points in your post...I work with them every day. I already acknowledged that narrative cinema in low light, wide-open apertures, and resultant shallow DOF, presents challenges to critical focus. Those are no secrets and common knowledge among us veterans.

You didn't address a single point I made in my Post #39 about the high ratio of EFP to feature productions, the high ratio of daylight EFP productions to artificial light productions, the resultant higher f stops between 5.6 and f11, the resultant medium to deep DOF requirements and enablement for those productions. I work with that nearly every day too, as a director and shooter, achieving exactly what I described, in 1080p 2/3". I’ve also worked extensively with 35mm, so believe me, I have the flick on the production issues with that.

I think your time would be better spent trying to school someone who has less experience than me. I’m a 30-year veteran of over 800 national television programs as a director and cameraman, and a multiple Emmy recipient who works daily on high profile national and international programs for 12 different networks. You’re not telling me anything I didn’t learn decades ago - and have been using ever since.

I see you just joined this forum yesterday. You’re pretty aggressive for a new guy on a forum. I think you’ll find that this is a good learning place full of knowledgeable people.

 

[donatello b]

" am not critising RED focus assist"

basically there is nothing we can say about REDs focus assist ...
until we see it we only have the RED teams statement = it will knock your socks off ... if you haven't been disappointed with the RED camera images which they said it will knock your socks off ( glad i wore sandals to screening) .. i believe focus assist will be excellent !!

 

[Michael Brennan]

Focus for 4K

Focus for 4K

Gibby,

Perhaps you missed that I was not only reffering to Cinema production.
My original post reffered to any production destined for large screen
Quote
"Large screen displays be it cinema screen or +42 inch panels are a serious challenge for self pullers!"

By +42 inch panels I was reffering to HDTV transmisison blue ray ect.

In reply to your post about RED being used on productions with f5-f11,
we know that 1080p is in use now at f5-f11 and in context of the original post about watching on large screens, there are focus issues.


In my view soft shots can take place on HD due to poor or rushed craft and inadequte viewfinders even at f5-f8 and only become apparent on large screens.

Yes, it is common knowledge in 1080p land but given RED will introduce 4K run and gun to a wide market for the first time since WWII it is worth exploring.

Would move the discussion on to hear from anyone with experience of shooting run and gun with 35mm without focus puller for large screen display.

I'll be first to applaud a viewfinder that displays the same or more resolution than audience.

cheers

Mike

 

[Steve Gibby]

Mike,

Focus is obviously a challenge at all resolutions from 1080p up to 4k – and beyond. Those who have worked in those resolutions understand that. Those who haven’t will have a learning curve to deal with. That said, there are tons of variables that make focusing easier or more difficult: lighting, subject matter, DOF needs of individual shots, etc. Let’s bring that into the context of RED One. RED one is capable of shooting in 720p, 1080p, 2k, 4k, and 2540p. RED One is also capable of using B4 2/3” lenses, S16 lenses, 35mm still lenses, and S35 lenses. Let’s take this analysis a little further. RED One, by its scalable and flexible nature in size, accessories, formats, and lenses, becomes a different tool with each combination of format, lens, and accessory package. RED One is thus capable of being used in an broad range of cine-style and EFP style productions – and will be.

Now lets add something else into the mix: experience level of those who use RED One. RED One has a wide range of potential uses and genre applications, thus it will be used by users with a commensurately wide range of experience levels – everything from grizzled old veterans down to newbies graduating up from the 1/3” prosumer world. Solving the challenges will depend on each user’s experience level and if they have experience in the particular genres they are trying to shoot in. The biggest challenge for any RED One user will be for them to have as broad a range of skill sets as the camera will enable. Why use a Swiss Army Knife with a ton of tools, if you’re only planning on using the basic knife blade that is your traditional comfort zone?

Those moving up from the 1/3” prosumer ranks will definitely have a learning curve as they use RED One: lenses, DOF issues, critical focus, etc. Those moving over to RED One from the traditional film ranks will have their own set of challenges: re-thinking their workflow for what RED’s technology enables, learning EFP production if they want to maximize the earning potential of RED One, learning to trust electronics, etc.

Is the RED Team aware of the focus challenges inherent in 1080p up to 2540p acquisition? Yes they are. On this forum and the other RED forums for the past 15 months the RED Team has repeatedly acknowledged the challenges of focus at those resolutions, and said that their 720p EVF, 720p LCD, and new focus assist function will be extremely effective in achieving critical focus at the resolutions that RED One shoots. At this point we need to wait for the cameras, EVF’s, and LCDs to ship, then test out how they work with the focus assist at all the resolutions RED One shoots. I have one of the first cameras coming (#8), and I’ll be doing exactly that. At NAB, in just 4 weeks, RED has said they will demonstrate 4k footage, working cameras, workflows, etc. We’ll then be able to see exactly how the focus assist/EVF/LCD all dance together to achieve critical focus. Until then, relying on past focus challenges as a rationale for taking “critical focus can’t be done by one person” or “ I don’t believe 35mm run ‘n gun is possible” positions is simply making judgments about RED One’s capability that will probably be disproved at NAB. Mobile hi-def EFP guys are used to racking their own focus in apertures of f5.6 to f11. Guys who have only worked in the big crew, cine-style environment have a hard time getting their minds around the concept that electronic technology (focus assist) will now enable one person mobile EFP production in resolutions up to 4k. I work in both cine-style and EFP style workflows and I’m willing to evolve with what technology enables.

You’ll applaud a viewfinder that displays the same or more resolution than the audience? If you’re unwilling to accept that a 720p EVF or 720p LCD in tandem with a good focus assist utility can achieve critical focus at 2540p down to 1080p, then perhaps you joined the wrong forum two days ago, and RED One isn’t the camera for you. Perhaps you should just wait for a camera that sports a 2540p EVF and LCD. There are a bunch of us professionals here (and beyond) who feel that RED has engineered an effective solution to the critical focus needs of their camera. NAB will either prove us right or wrong.

This thread has been threadjacked long enough. It’s a Nikon Mount thread on the Lens Forum. If you’d like to discuss these issues further with me, let’s take it offline. My email addresses are on my web sites (links below).

 

[Joel Kaye]

You’ll applaud a viewfinder that displays the same or more resolution than the audience? If you’re unwilling to accept that a 720p EVF or 720p LCD in tandem with a good focus assist utility can achieve critical focus at 2540p down to 1080p, then perhaps you joined the wrong forum two days ago, and RED One isn’t the camera for you.

Exactly. The camera is seeing 4K. If Graeme is using all that detail to detect critical focus areas and then passes it along in a way that's viewable in a 720P display then it's a done deal. Critical 4K focusing off the monitor/viewfinder.

I've never gotten what's confusing about that.

 

[Michael Brennan]

Gibby,

My view is different from from yours, I knowledge there are issues with self pulling focus on HD using existing kit on projects for large screen display.

Not deal breakers but hassles. I am simply using this experience to ponder shooting 4K.

I did not say that I was unwilling to accept that the EVF would work, I said I want the same or more res as the viewer, if EVF can do that using new ideas with 720p then fantastic it will be the crown jewel in an exciting and innovative camera.

In the 2nd post you though I was agressive and this post you say I shouldn't have joined the RED forum because (para phrasing) I am unwilling to accept that new advances can be made with viewfinders and thus RED isn't the camera for me.

I have never suggested that the viewfinder is pivitol in the decision as to use RED or not.

Have I written anything critical about RED or the actual viewfinder at all?
And if I was critical isn't this is what forums are for... to share views?

Off to another thread

Mike

 

[Steve Gibby]

Mike,

My points centered around reserving judgment on the capability of the RED EVF/LCD/focus assist until after NAB and field testing of them. That's the time to either praise or criticize the EVF/LCD/focus assist effectiveness. I also expressed my belief that the RED Team has been well aware of the challenges of focus in the resolutions the camera will shoot.

Our whole discussion started when you called me out on my using WYSIWYG in a post. I didn't come after you, but rather you came after me when I used that term. It then accelerated into you making posts that were designed to educate me on the challenges and intricacies of critical focus in resolutions from 1080p up to 4k. I let you know that that wasn’t necessary – I have the flick on those issues.

We view the issues and possibilities differently, and that's fine. Everyone forms their opinions based on their experiences and readings. I'm fine with that. At this point let's just agree to disagree.

Yeah...that's what forums are for, to discuss and offer constructive criticism. That's what we've been doing, so this forum is functioning exactly as it should.

There are a lot of people now getting interested in RED. There are also those of us who have been interested since day one. There have been hundreds of long threads on RED forums since RED was announced. Most issues concerning RED have deeply discussed. When someone first gets interested in RED, I think the search tool on RED forums is indispensable. It's a way to read what has already been discussed, including the posts by RED Team members, and get up to speed on the current info level of all the issues. What you and me have discussed on this thread has been thoroughly discussed on multiple threads before.

No worries...good luck in your research of the issues. If you can make it to NAB to check out RED first hand, that would be a very good move.