Nikon Lenses on S35 chip?

[Jonathan Burton]

Hello. I am thinking of buying a set of Zeiss ZF primes (nikon mount) for another camera. I am also planing to by the scarlet s35 when it comes out and i am wondering if these lenses will cover the super35 size chip if i use them with the scarlet? Any help would be greatly appreciated!:biggrin:

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Yes, as well as FF.

 

[Patrick Scheller]

Zeiss ZF lenses are made for SLR/DSLR with FF (36x24mm) and therefore cover the FF35 format sensor as well as the much smaller Super35 (22x18mm) movie formats. The invers though is not possible, for understandable reasons.

 

[Lee Saxon]

Be sure to keep in mind the focal length conversion when deciding which lenses to buy. A 'FF35' lens mounted on an S35 Scarlet will be about 1.29 times its stated focal length.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Be sure to keep in mind the focal length conversion when deciding which lenses to buy. A 'FF35' lens mounted on an S35 Scarlet will be about 1.29 times its stated focal length.

No it won't A 35mm is a 35mm, a 50mm is a 50mm. Most DSLRs don't have full frame sensors, for example the Nikon D3 was the first from Nikon to offer a full frame sensor. So ironically, most DSLR's out in the world have about a 1.2~1.5X crop, just as the RED One does.

If you put a 35mm Zeiss ZF on a RED One and a S35mm Zeiss PL mount prime. You will see the same FOV. The ZF lenses are designed for full-frame, so they produce a larger imaging circle and will cover a larger sensor or piece of film, thus giving a large FOV in that format, whereas a S35mm prime will show fall-off and will most likely vignette on the FF35 sensor.

But since focal length is the same, an object in the middle of your frame that registers on the sensor or film plane as 8mm tall with the S35 glass, will also still be 8mm tall with the FF35 glass.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Thanks Jeff! MORE reason to keep my delicious ZF glass... and with a reversing gear, one takes care of bass ackwards FF issues for the Focus Puller...

 

[Lee Saxon]

First off Jeff you're clearly a super knowledgeable guy so some of this isn't aimed at you so much as other people who may not be as familiar with these issues, so please don't take offense or feel like I'm talking down to you.

No it won't A 35mm is a 35mm, a 50mm is a 50mm.

I'm sorry but this is incorrect.

Most DSLRs don't have full frame sensors, for example the Nikon D3 was the first from Nikon to offer a full frame sensor. So ironically, most DSLR's out in the world have about a 1.2~1.5X crop, just as the RED One does.

This is correct. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you because these two quotes seem directly contradictory to me.

http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glossary/Optical/Focal_Length_Multiplier_01.htm

The Zeiss ZFs are designed to project an image onto a 36x24mm film frame (43.27mm diagonal). With a sensor smaller than 36x24mm (FF35), part of that image is cropped/ignored, resulting in a narrower field of view.

In the case of the S35 Scarlet, the sensor is 30x15mm (33.54mm diagonal), so that "crop factor" when mounting a FF35 lens such as the Zeiss ZFs in question is 43.27 / 33.54 = 1.29

You mentioned DSLRs: my Nikon D2x has a 23.7x15.7mm (28.43mm diagonal) sensor, so the "crop factor" is 43.27 / 28.43 = 1.522

A 100mm Zeiss ZF mounted on an S35 Scarlet would have the same field of view as a 129mm Zeiss ZF (if such lens existed) mounted on FF35 camera. In the case of my D2x that number is 152.2mm.

If you put a 35mm Zeiss ZF on a RED One and a S35mm Zeiss PL mount prime. You will see the same FOV. The ZF lenses are designed for full-frame, so they produce a larger imaging circle and will cover a larger sensor or piece of film, thus giving a large FOV in that format, whereas a S35mm prime will show fall-off and will most likely vignette on the FF35 sensor.

Using a FF35 Zeiss ZF on an S35 camera instead of whatever S35 format lens gave the same FoV would of course give a better image in many ways because you're using only the center "sweet spot" of the glass. But now we're talking about equivalent focal lengths and "sweet spot behavior," which is a different issue.

But since focal length is the same, an object in the middle of your frame that registers on the sensor or film plane as 8mm tall with the S35 glass, will also still be 8mm tall with the FF35 glass.

Exactly, it's not a magnification or anything like that, it's simply a crop. Lots of people aren't clear on that. For anyone who isn't, the "Case 1" section of the link I posted above gives a great illustration of this concept.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Lee,

You're right. But you're talking about "sensor crop" or a crop factor due to the format, not inherent to the lens or focal length itself. If you put a 35mm Zeiss ZF on a RED ONE and frame your shot. Then pull that lens off and replace it with a S35mm Ultra Prime, (arbitrary example and ignoring subtle focal length differences from one lens design to another), your framing remains identical, nothing changes. the fact that the ZF has a much larger imaging circle is irrelevant due to the crop factor of the RED One's sensor vs. a full frame 35mm image area.

So for someone who is used to shooting FF35 glass on an FF35 camera and then they go to shoot that same glass on a camera like the RED One, they can expect a cropped FOV compared to what they are used to. However, for someone familiar with shooting S35 glass on the RED One, it's a different perspective. If they put a FF35 lens on there, they don't see any changes in focal lengths compared to what they were accustomed to with S35 glass.

So I think we're on the same page. It's just a matter of looking at it from a given perspective.

I'll get out my Big Chief tablet and crayons (Photoshop) in a bit and illustrate because I'm afraid we're confusing other people here.

 

[Dale Anthony Smith]

Forgive my jumping onto this topic, but you are right where I need to be.

I was wondering how this issue would relate the the Scarlet with the 2/3" chip... I am planning on getting the Scarlet lensless cine body with the Nikon adapter... I still have several of my old Nikon lenses left and a couple of new auto ones. I regret letting go of my 50 1.4 and 24mm 2.8 (a favorite)... but with the smaller sensor on the Nikon body, the 24 turned into a 36mm...

My question relates to the focal length of the Nikon lenses to the 2/3" sensor.
What will a 12 - 18mm zoom or an old 80 - 200 zoom be on the Scarlet cine?

Thanks in advance
Dale

 

[Lee Saxon]

My question relates to the focal length of the Nikon lenses to the 2/3" sensor.
What will a 12 - 18mm zoom or an old 80 - 200 zoom be on the Scarlet cine?

The Nikon lenses are designed to cover a 43.27mm diagonal, the Scarlet 2/3" sensor has an 11.43mm diagonal. Any focal length you want to convert, multiply it by (43.27/11.43), for instance :

12 * (43.27/11.43) = 45.4
18 * (43.27/11.43) = 68

80 * (43.27/11.43) = 302.8
200 8 (43.27/11.43) = 757.1

So mounting a Nikon 12-18mm or 80-200mm on the 2/3" Scarlet would give you the same field of view as mounting a Nikon 45-68mm or 303-757mm on a full frame (or film) Nikon (if those lenses existed).

One important thing to note is that it's simply a crop, not any kind of alteration of the lens properties, so you get the wider depth of field characteristics of for instance an 80mm not a 300mm.

Check out the "Case 1" section of this link for an illustration of the concept : http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glossary/Optical/Focal_Length_Multiplier_01.htm

 

[Lee Saxon]

I'm afraid we're confusing other people here.

I have to admit we're confusing me! haha

You're saying that I'm right about the 'crop factor' when mounting a 'FF35' lens on an S35 camera. For example a 100mm 'FF35' lens goes from a 23 degree FoV to about a 16 degree FoV ('129mm').

But I think you're also saying that an S35-format 100mm lens is also a 16 degree FoV?

 

[Stephen Williams]

I have to admit we're confusing me! haha

You're saying that I'm right about the 'crop factor' when mounting a 'FF35' lens on an S35 camera. For example a 100mm 'FF35' lens goes from a 23 degree FoV to about a 16 degree FoV ('129mm').

But I think you're also saying that an S35-format 100mm lens is also a 16 degree FoV?

Hi,

You need to understand some basic lens theory, the mm of the lens has nothing to do with an angle of view, that can only be calculated when you know the format size as well.

Any 100mm lens on S35 format has an approx angle of view of 16 degrees.

Stephen

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Hi,

You need to understand some basic lens theory, the mm of the lens has nothing to do with an angle of view, that can only be calculated when you know the format size as well.

Any 100mm lens on S35 format has an approx angle of view of 16 degrees.

Stephen

Exactly.

Here's a quick and dirty illustration. If you put a Full Frame 35mm lens on a RED One, you have the exact same FOV as you would if you used a S35mm lens of the same focal length. Notice the actual image does not change sizes between the two lens formats. The size of an object at a given distance will remain the same size in representation on the image plane if the focal length remains the same between different lenses.

 

[Russ Fill]

Thank you so much Jeff. Im going to send this example to about 20 or so people in the industry I have this same argument with every other month.
Its like they want something for nothing when they use a lens in a different format.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I did it real quick, so it's not 100% to scale, but it illustrates the concept. The red FF35 outline shifted vertically from one pic to the next and I didn't notice until after I posted. Didn't save the PSD file to go fix it either... Oh well. I hope this helps people visualize this a bit better.

 

[Andy Taplin]

Thanks Jeff

So now the FOV is understood, what about its sibling DOF?

With FF35 lenses on a 2/3 Scarlet and a 35mm mount, presumably the DOF is not altered from a what it would be on a FF35 sensor, just the FOV?

 

[Stephen Williams]

Thanks Jeff

So now the FOV is understood, what about its sibling DOF?

With FF35 lenses on a 2/3 Scarlet and a 35mm mount, presumably the DOF is not altered from a what it would be on a FF35 sensor, just the FOV?

I give up

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Correct, DOF is not altered. DOF is a function of focal length and aperture. The same principle illustrated above applies to DOF. To continue using the 100mm focal length as an example, We can determine that a 100mm lens set to an aperture of f=2 has an actual iris opening (or pupil) diameter of 50mm. f-stop = (focal length) / (aperture diameter).

So, given that, a 100mm lens at f2.0 will have a 50mm iris opening regardless of whether it's a FF35 lens or an S35 lens. When shooting on the RED One or other S35 camera, the DOF at 100mm f2.0 is the same whether you shoot with a FF35 lens or a S35 lens. But just like FOV, the perceived DOF will appear altered when you compare a full frame image to a s35 image due to the smaller format of the s35. And in actuality, once again at the same focal length and aperture, the DOF is the same even on the larger FF35 format, it just often looks different due to the larger coverage and ability to have more diverse framing. When shooting even larger formats, such as 65mm or even IMAX. The same principle still applies. 100mm f2.0 still has a 50mm aperture and the DOF remains the same. However, the frame size and image circle coverage are greatly enlarged to cover the larger format, so the effect of DOF or rather the shallowness of it, is greatly exaggerated due to the different framing of your subjects to compliment the format.

In the cine industry most lenses are marked with T-Stops. Unlike the f number, which tells us the size of the aperture, the T-Stop represents the actual light transmission efficiency through the lens. The actual absorption index of the lens itself must be measured to figure the T-Stop based on the % of transmission efficiency and f number. T-Stops became the standard in the motion picture industry for primarily one reason -- consistent light handling between lenses. One could swap from a 20mm to a 50mm lens and know that the captured light levels within their scene would not change as long as the T-Stop remained consistent.

 

[Dale Anthony Smith]

Thanks so much for taking the time... the illustrations above (and the Case 1) were very helpful. The only question remaining relates to the Nikon DX lenses. I understand how the older 35mm Film lenses relate to the illustration.

DX lenses are focused on sensor that is 23.7 X 15mm.
The best "fit" for a DX lens seems to be the Red ONE sensor at 24.4 X 13.7mm

The S35 Scarlet has larger sensor, so these lenses might not "cover" it??
The real question is about the 2/3" sensor at 10.1 X 5,35... It presents the same problem that occurred when I transitioned from film to digital in that the lenses gained 1.5 of their focal length... which was fine for the tele, but the WA lost their effectiveness. I guess the best solution for the interchangeable lens 2/3" Scarlet would be lenses from 16mm film cameras??

Thanks again for your time

 

[Juan Caballero]

and what about this adaptor?

Nikon to B4 2/3" Adaptor

http://www.mtfservices.com/component/content/article/68-nikon-to-b4-23q-adaptor.html