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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Nikon/Canon vs. PL Lenses

Jarek Zabczynski said:
By that logic wouldn't Zeiss Master Primes also fall under "poor's man attempt at film-making" ?

Or any other mechanical lens...aren't all PL mounts essentially "dumb" other than transmitting lens data...which the ZF.2s also do.

Just saying...
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It all depends how you want to use the lenses. I use Master Primes and I also use Nikon f/1.4 still lenses for stills and time lapse. They are all good lenses and have pros and cons. It is more what you are comfortable with and what works for your film making style. If you are not sure, you will not get the answer here: try yourself, evaluate efficiency and results.

There are times I pick up Master Primes and there are times I pick up Nikons if I want light weight or no critical focus pulls are needed.

BTW, I looked at Jim's ZFs and I liked the build quality. They are not Master Primes, but certaily they are nice lenses and the footage intercuts with Master Primes nicely. You should get one, play around with it and decide if it is going to work for you.

Red Primes are also nice. There are so many choices these days!
 
Looks like a great zoom. Really big though. And probably heavy. For me, id rather have a set of lighter primes, i tend to do a lot of handheld. Some good deals on ebay though.
 
Jarek Zabczynski said:
By that logic wouldn't Zeiss Master Primes also fall under "poor's man attempt at film-making" ?

Or any other mechanical lens...aren't all PL mounts essentially "dumb" other than transmitting lens data...which the ZF.2s also do.

Just saying...
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Jarek they don't.
There are many reasons why-from legacy, practicality, reliability through artistic choice and image rendition but they just don't. In fact there are so many reasons that I could write a good size chapter about it in a film making book. You could speak to any focus puller, DP and they will give you dozens of reasons. MPs, UPs, Cookes are in a different league price wise for a good reason...
 
Mike, I am talking about the fundamental decision about which mount to put on your camera and all that flows with that, not who is or is not professional. I mentioned Gibby because he likes to work with still lenses and he clearly doesn't feel limited by that choice. God bless him. I know a lot of others feel that way too. But as Jacek said in the post above, ask a focus puller or DP doing work that demands the control and robust mechanics that this system provides and they will clearly articulate why the choice is important. Of course you can shoot with still lenses, and lots of people shoot great looking footage with them. But that mount choice imposes a limitation on what you can do and how you do it, like it or not. Gibby has made the point many times that he feels that there are more people using Red cameras with still lenses than PL lenses and he may be correct. God bless all of them too. That still does not change my basic point. This is not meant to be an elitist comment or a statement of condescension. I think it is just a functional and mechanical fact.
 
I think the beauty of the system here is that you aren't limited by the mount, it's not being welded on at time or purchase. I don't use an AC or DP on my own personal projects, I shoot those myself and have been used to using "crappy" still lenses for years. For me, Epic and Zeiss ZF will be a leap forward in every direction. If I get a big gig that would benefit from or need PL glass, I can rent, so what's all the fuss about? If I had 25k to blow on glass I would go PL, but I do not.
 
Guess it all depends on how the smart mount is going to perform. I have no doubt it will be amazing, but I don't see everyone suddenly using it to do subtle focus pulls and other experience/instinctual based shooting. If you want affordable and very light lenses that can accomplish the same optical and manual focus abilitlies as ones that should be much more expensive, the ZFs are a great choice.

Jacek, have you been looking at ZFs that have been approved and modded by Duclos or just off the shelf? Can be a very different beast as only the best lenses get through, and their mod is absolutely gorgeous.

Anyway, it's not important that we all agree on what the most appropriate lenses are, just that there is plenty of choice and their are pros/cons in any decision you make.
 
Use BOTH---when client wants PL---on goes PL mount. When shoot stock or your own shoots & you have only Nikon---shoot Nikon....That truly is the beauty of the RED system my opinion. I love shooting my Nikon glass as many already know (and taken a verbal beat-down for it as well-recent post)...but i also shoot PL when i'm asked to....If pulling focus often, yes...lot of the still glass is not appropriate and nice Cooke; Arri PL glass is a must. But, you have option for both...

....only limitation for anyone i suspect is how much $$ you have for glass.....well, another would be how much weight do you want to carry on the camera as well....
 
lens choice

lens choice

Lets hope we end up with a Quick Release ability to change from one to another like the All-star system.

That solves many issues.
 
Erich Roland said:
Lets hope we end up with a Quick Release ability to change from one to another like the All-star system.

That solves many issues.
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Indeed, I've looked into the Allstar mount and it looks pretty nice.
 
Is the Allstar mount going to be a smart mount? If not, people with great Nikon and Canon electronic lenses will be getting the worst of both worlds.

Stephen
 
Stephen Pruitt said:
Is the Allstar mount going to be a smart mount? If not, people with great Nikon and Canon electronic lenses will be getting the worst of both worlds.

Stephen
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What? ? What Allstar mount? Did he announce one for EPIC ? or are you referring to the one that is out now? Seems like an engineering nightmare to make a smart mount like that....or a challenge at the least. My money is on RED coming to market with the only smart mount that will pass their standards and "approval" For now, there is the OptiTek mount with IRIS control for G lenses....and works beautiful. I doubt we'll see a Nikon smart mount anytime soon.....but i can only hope i'm wrong.
 
Johnny Friday said:
What? ? What Allstar mount? Did he announce one for EPIC ? or are you referring to the one that is out now? Seems like an engineering nightmare to make a smart mount like that....or a challenge at the least. My money is on RED coming to market with the only smart mount that will pass their standards and "approval" For now, there is the OptiTek mount with IRIS control for G lenses....and works beautiful. I doubt we'll see a Nikon smart mount anytime soon.....but i can only hope i'm wrong.
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Why would it be an engineering nightmare? The fully electronic smart mount for canon already exists and has been very successfully used by hundreds of R1 owners for over three years now with multiple options for controlling wired and wireless and abovewater and underwater. Because of the nice epic front face design and sensor based backfocus, adapting to Epic would be a piece of cake and actually easier than making the dumb mounts since the actual lens mount is already made - it's basically just an adapter plate that any good machinist could make in a few hours. I haven't done it because I'm partners in my M so don't want to mess it's warranty up and I'm waiting to see what Red can deliver with my X.

(and I also don't want to piss Jarred off :-) - I have tremendous respect for what the Red team has achieved, and in my mind that respect includes acceding to their wishes as much as possible. But they also have a LOT of irons in the fire, so at some point, if Red isn't able to deliver in time or without the remote capability we have come to rely upon, then we need to ask them to reconsider because I have serious, professional users for whom this is very important and there is NO other solution that is even close to as effective as smart mount Canon)
 
jimhare said:
Jacek, have you been looking at ZFs that have been approved and modded by Duclos or just off the shelf? Can be a very different beast as only the best lenses get through, and their mod is absolutely gorgeous.
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Duclos is Zeiss dealer. They have vested interest in promoting these lenses. They are not Nikon dealer.
I've known Paul longer than most here. There is absolutely no question about his integrity. They are the dying breed of true craftsmen. I think Matt will continue the tradition.
One has to remember however that they also are a business for profit.
All I'm saying is there is no substitute for your own tests focused on your own style. Don't get fixated on a brand. It doesn't mean much anymore...
Enter .....Red Digital Cinema:thumbup1:
 
Michael Hastings said:
Why would it be an engineering nightmare? The fully electronic smart mount for canon already exists and has been very successfully used by hundreds of R1 owners for over three years now with multiple options for controlling wired and wireless and abovewater and underwater. Because of the nice epic front face design and sensor based backfocus, adapting to Epic would be a piece of cake and actually easier than making the dumb mounts since the actual lens mount is already made - it's basically just an adapter plate that any good machinist could make in a few hours. I haven't done it because I'm partners in my M so don't want to mess it's warranty up and I'm waiting to see what Red can deliver with my X.

(and I also don't want to piss Jarred off :-) - I have tremendous respect for what the Red team has achieved, and in my mind that respect includes acceding to their wishes as much as possible. But they also have a LOT of irons in the fire, so at some point, if Red isn't able to deliver in time or without the remote capability we have come to rely upon, then we need to ask them to reconsider because I have serious, professional users for whom this is very important and there is NO other solution that is even close to as effective as smart mount Canon)
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Michael......need i point out how long it took for that electronic mount (I think BIRGER MOUNT YES?)....to come to market? I realize the desire to see a mount in place, but to actually say and BELIEVE that building an Electronic mount is going to be EASIER than making a DUMB mount is easier......well, i won't comment.....the only mount out right now that fits the EPIC is the Nikon mount by Jacek---call it a dumb mount. but it's the only mount for Nikon.

what my comment originally was about was the Allstar mount being somehow adapted to an ELECTRONIC mount for EPIC.......there is NO LONGER A PIN CONNECTOR which may or may not make the making of an electronic mount easier for EPIC.....but if it is as easy as you say....i retract my previous remark. Seems nobody has come to the plate other then Jacek for a dumb mount and as you have already seen,......that was a bit of an uphill push and we don't know if that has or will be certified by RED yet. So i think we are a long way off from an electronic mount......RED in my opinion will be first to market with their cannon mount, but how would an Allstar mount make the conversion? was the all-star mount electronic originally? I think not....so that was what my post was directed at. AND i'll go further....i think it not as easy as you suggest....but I WOULD LOVE TO BE WRONG......please somebody come out with an electronic Nikon mount for EPIC....todays date is July 31, 2011.......I will mark in my calendar....to see when the first version comes out...As we know, there are hundreds if not thousands waiting with baited breathe for an electronic Cannon or Nikon mount.

Thanks for the open conversation here Mike....i know we want to see a mutually beneficial outcome with the mounts.
 
Just to come back to the initial question, here are my lenses "possibilities":

Nikon: 1.4 dream set (24-35-50erk-85mm)+ 10.5 + 17-55 ((or 24-70) + 105 macro (or 70-200))
Canon: 24 lII + 50 1.2 + 85 1.2 + 105 macro + 14 fisheye + one ts (no canon zoom)
Zeiss: I like the cp2's but some people pretend they're not good enough for their price.
Red: RPZ 17-50 and probably the 85 or 100mm.
other: many alternatives depend on how, what, why you are shooting.
 
Johnny Friday said:
Michael......need i point out how long it took for that electronic mount (I think BIRGER MOUNT YES?)....to come to market? I realize the desire to see a mount in place, but to actually say and BELIEVE that building an Electronic mount is going to be EASIER than making a DUMB mount is easier......well, i won't comment.....the only mount out right now that fits the EPIC is the Nikon mount by Jacek---call it a dumb mount. but it's the only mount for Nikon.

what my comment originally was about was the Allstar mount being somehow adapted to an ELECTRONIC mount for EPIC.......there is NO LONGER A PIN CONNECTOR which may or may not make the making of an electronic mount easier for EPIC.....but if it is as easy as you say....i retract my previous remark. Seems nobody has come to the plate other then Jacek for a dumb mount and as you have already seen,......that was a bit of an uphill push and we don't know if that has or will be certified by RED yet. So i think we are a long way off from an electronic mount......RED in my opinion will be first to market with their cannon mount, but how would an Allstar mount make the conversion? was the all-star mount electronic originally? I think not....so that was what my post was directed at. AND i'll go further....i think it not as easy as you suggest....but I WOULD LOVE TO BE WRONG......please somebody come out with an electronic Nikon mount for EPIC....todays date is July 31, 2011.......I will mark in my calendar....to see when the first version comes out...As we know, there are hundreds if not thousands waiting with baited breathe for an electronic Cannon or Nikon mount.

Thanks for the open conversation here Mike....i know we want to see a mutually beneficial outcome with the mounts.
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First of all, I'm not really disagreeing with you - as you say it's about the conversation and exploring the possibilities. Developing the smart mount from scratch is definitely a major task, so yes I'm talking about adapting the Birger mount. You know from testing Jacek's mount how simple the physical switch is.

As drawn out as the Birger/R1 development was, keep in mind that it was mostly about incorporating the backfocus adjustment into the Birger mount - the electronics and physical Canon portion were done years before and is readily adaptable to a wide variety of cameras - like the epic and many others - that don't have the type of adjuster setup the R1 has which is a bit unusual. I just did a housing for the PhantomFlex and Erik was able to adapt it in just a few days - and the PhantomFlex is a little more difficult because it has the OLPF in the mount so Birger had to machine a spot for the OLPF in their adapter, but otherwise it is basically like the Epic - just four screws to take out and swap. Phantom uses shims like most film cameras for FFD adjustment so Epic will be even easier with it's sensor FFD adjustment.

And back to a little bit of on the thread topic:

Their are two problems that may keep a smart Nikon mount in limbo for a long time. First, many of the lenses still use the physical actuator pin to adjust iris so the mount has to have a pretty serious electromechanical interface - so more difficult than the pure electronic Canon style.

Secondly, while there is a tremendous DESIRE for a nikon smart mount, there isn't a tremendous NEED for it if there is already a Canon smart mount (RED or Birger). The NEED is for the ability to use modern, extremely high quality optics with built in iris and focus motors at the kind of prices that are available when they are mass produced. The difference in price between say a Nikon or Canon 14mm and a new PL 14mm is HUGE, but there isn't much difference optically (in fact, except for the new master prime, the PL 14s won't even cover 5K - but the NIK/Canons cover 5K and more) and then for remote control situations like jib or underwater work you have to add $10 - $20K in gears, motors, etc. to make the PL lens work like the still lenses do with their built in motors. Again, the real NEEDs are handled by Canon mount lenses, so even if you are invested in a lot of Nikon (with the Ebay market) it doesn't cost much to switch, and even if you keep your Nikon you can get most of the Canon you need for a few thousand dollars - cheaper than a single PL lens even of the "bargain" versions from Red, Zeiss CP2, Lumatech, etc. And some of the critical lense - like the superwide Tokina 11-16 - a range not covered by any of the "bargain" brands - are readily available in either Nikon or Canon (for $700!!). Further - since the Canon Flange Focal Distance is the shortest, you can use your Nikon lenses with mechanical iris (or Contax Zeiss, Leica, Hasselblad, Pentax, etc.) on a Canon mount with simple mechanical adapters. All of this is a little bit of a disincentive for any of the players to prioritize putting a lot of time in making a Nikon version. My biggest concern is that with RED already having a line of PL lenses, combined with all of the other priorities RED has for Epic accessories, even the Canon smart mount release will keep getting delayed. I'm hoping that RED will realize that they have built a very robust setup for changing mounts on the Epic and be a little more confident both in their own design AND IN US - the Redusers - and be more open to letting us use whatever mount makes sense.

PS Frank, to answer your question - go with the Canon - they are the most likely to be supported, great optically and if you need the mechanics of cine lenses you can pop the pl mount back on and rent the specific lenses you need - as someone said earlier, most of the time on those jobs the client will have their own preference anyway.
 
Well....i think we all welcome ANY smart mount options...but what was asked here was about the Allstar mount being a smart mount....so not sure if that was answered....i was unaware that he was engineering a smart mount for Epic....i still think the design time and challenges are going to be time consuming....BUT, only my opinion...i base this on the fact we don't see one now...nor was allstar a smart mount on R1....But i think that makes no difference. I believe RED will be the one designing their own smart mounts....and in the meantime we'll see a number of mechanical mounts out there...


agree how easy it is to change the mount---four screws; pop of the PL; add "other" mount--and less than 60 seconds you have changed mounts. The only downside of all this VS. R1 mount to me is.....on the old R1 backfocus adjust you could MARK where PL/Nikon/Cannon mount was calibrated---but on the new Epic system.....there's no way to go to your preset back-focus mark.....so you have to go through the backfocus process all over each time you swamp mounts....For this reason i have dedicated a Nikon only camera and a PL only camera....
 
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