Next Steps for Scarlet Owners??

[Terry VerHaar]

I am a Scarlet owner/lover. But, I have assumed it would only be a matter of time before I moved up the RED chain. When the trade-in plan was announced, I assumed I would eventually go to Epic with the possibility open to take another step to Epic Dragon. I eschewed the Scarlet to Scarlet Dragon path because a) it seemed like a closed path, no way to keep on the upward path, and b) i figured a brand new Epic body was better than an "upgrade" of the current body (truth be told, however, my particular Scarlet has been very reliable and well cared for).

The recent price increase on the Dragon upgrades didn't really bother me too much because I could still go, first to Epic, and then worry abut where we were with Dragon later; but I always had the upgrade option.

Then, the world shifted with the introduction of Weapon and the resulting need to have a Dragon in order to stay in the upward path going forward. All of sudden, Scarlet to Scarlet Dragon looked better but then there was that pesky extra $3K (total of $12.5K) to upgrade to Scarlet dragon, which only made my existing Scarlet body worth $2K when comparing a brand new purchase at $14.5K. Similarly, the 2-step upgrade to Epic Dragon would be $22K; a lot of cash in a short time and also, only making my Scarlet body worth $2K compared to a new purchase.

My first thought was to sell my current Scarlet body. If I could clear $5K for it, I'd be better off. I also thought I would then be able to sell off my Side SSD Module with the camera (since Weapon will require Mini-mags). But, lo and behold, Jarred was feeling generous last night and the upgrade path to Dragons was dialed back to the old $9.5K. Suddenly my Scarlet body was worth $5K in trade-in/upgrade again. WooHoo!

Now the dilemma of what to do with the Side SSD Module? Good news always brings with it decisions and trade-offs. lol If I upgrade my Scarlet body to Scarlet Dragin, I am still "stuck" with the "old" SSD system. Will it be saleable by itself? Seems like it might be tough; as people move up the chain, newer folks in will probably buy their bodies already equipped with the SSD module. So, trade in is easier than selling but what abut the SSD system? Arrrggh!

While mostly talking to myself here (with the possibility that others have been noodling the same things), I am wondering what others are thinking about the transition of the SSD to mini-mag process.

 

[Les Hillis]

The announcement of the Weapon upgrade, plus the lowering of the MX to Dragon upgrade back down to $9500, combined with the ending of the MX to Dragon option altogether some time around June 2015, could definitely make some current Scarlet-MX owners re-think their plans.

Something else to throw into the mix, is that it's been stated there will be no separate Epic/Scarlet naming scheme for the new RED Weapon camera's. It hasn't been confirmed, but that could mean there will only be one type of Weapon camera internally (but still with carbon-fiber, and probably 'M' machined body versions). If that's the case, you'd expect the upgrade from a Scarlet Dragon to a Weapon to include the price of upgrading to an Epic Dragon's internal functionality. Again, who knows how it will actually play out in the end, but with the limited information we have so far, it's a possibility you'd have to consider. Which could mean, if there does turn out to be only one kind of RED Weapon camera, you might be better off paying for the upgrade to the Dragon Epic now and making use of it before signing up for the Weapon upgrade at NAB (at a lesser price than a Scarlet to Weapon upgrade) and while waiting for your number to come up for the actual upgrade later on in the year. In any case, it has been stated that upgrading from any kind of Dragon will be cheaper than buying a new Weapon outright. (Which is not to suggest that it will actually be cheap, it was clearly pointed out that it won't be. Generous of RED to even make it available, yes, but not a minor upgrade.)

Fact is, there just isn't enough information to make a fully considered decision so far, in terms of making the transition through the Weapon upgrade process as cost-efficiently as possible. We still don't know wtf the Weapon is, lol.

Same with the SSD's. The new Mini-Mag Side SSD Module on the pictures of the Weapon we've seen so far is different to the current one, but it hasn't been stated whether or not the current Mini-Mag SSD Module will be compatible with the Weapon, or have reduced functionality, or what. It's been stated RED won't take back the 1.8" SSD's, but they haven't said either way whether or not they'd take back the current 1.8" or Mini Side SSD Modules with your old body when you upgrade. It'd be nice to think they would, but there's no guarantee at this point.

I think if you know for sure you're going to be upgrading to the Weapon regardless of what it turns out to be, it would make some sense to move over now to the Mini-Mag system and start trying to off-load your 1.8" RedMags and Side SSD Module. But what happens if the increased uptake of Mini-Mags results in lower prices or new capacities, or the current Mini-Mag Side SSD Module isn't Weapon compatible, or...or...

Again, not enough precise information yet to make precise plans.

Hmmm, turns out this was one of those 'wait and see' kind of posts. Hopefully there'll be more info released before NAB to help current RED owners decide what to do.

 

[Jon Carr]

When you upgrade your current SSD module stays on your camera and gets engraved with dragon. You can switch to the mini mags while upgrading but will be paying the extra cost of buying it. Different story for CF dragons where they were able to trade in the 1.8 module for mini mags module. You can always upgrade to mini mags later, and still have them engrave the dragon logo on it too.

 

[Ryan Hamblin]

I have a strong feeling there will not be a lowere tier of weapon out side of the non carbon version. So upgrading to weapon from scarlet dragon may be a very hefty financial investment on the upgrade. It's left me in a place where I think I'll just keep shooting with my scarlet. Even when I deliver 4k. My 3k slomo with a hair of sharpening is nearly identical to 4k. Most of my clients never even need the 4k master... Though we always master in 4k. It would be awesome to have weapon and I'm sure it will be amazing but I'll have to use it in rental situations when the budget justifies.

I'm worried the new rumored camera from Panasonic may have to become my day to day camera when I can't rent a weapon. Which means I may have to sell scarlet. That will break my heart. I've shot nothing but red for my paying projects since the red one came out. Def will kill me to not have one anymore

 

[Scott Crawley]

I don't think of Scarlet in terms of trade in value so your $2,000 figure is especially abhorrent to me. That kind of treatment does nothing for values, particularly if owners begin to let them go for that kind of money just so they can have the newest thing. The camera is worth more than that, but enough of my little soapbox. I have nothing but respect for your business sense Terry. Bad feelings aside I am inclined to bet on the open market and I have at least two reasons for that.

The first pertains to me as someone for whom the Dragon upgrade just isn't going to happen. The upgrade is a generous offer no doubt and those who can, should take advantage of it. I have to skip Dragon. That is just my reality. I am not currently in the commercial production or rental business. I bought Scarlet for my craft and training so it has not been generating much income outside of the odd freelance gig. Without that income it is prohibitively expensive to stay on the bleeding edge. To be honest that was never part of my plan anyway, though I wish it were.

The lost value of the trade up will depend quite a lot on how many accessories will follow to Weapon. Some may be made incompatible by the new form factor and capabilities and others like the SSD module and mag reader will be replaced by new tech. Those parts will be worth more on the open market as components of a complete shooting package than if sold piecemeal or worse, left hanging around the shop. If I can time it right I believe I can do OK skipping Dragon, selling Scarlet MX and moving directly to Weapon... provided the price of Weapon is not completely insane. (I mean insane for me, from the perspective of my situation.) If the cost of Weapon is relatively high I will have to get cracking' and book a fair volume of gigs with Scarlet. That incidentally was the long game anyway. ;-)

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Thanks for the helpful thoughts, guys.

Scott - I agree that the "value" of Scarlet is clearly more than that, now temporarily past, trade-in value of $2K. That's why I figured I'd see and buy back in if that were the scenario. Now the "trade-in value" is back up to $5K for now and one question is whether it makes any sense to still try to see for more and buy back in. Of course, then you deal with the evaluation re-registration fee... and the hassle. For now, I think the upgrade is the better of those two particular scenarios.

I fear you are right about the piecemeal sale of the SSD parts. But, unless one is willing to go all in right now and sell the whole kit, I think it's a wait-and-see game for now.

 

[Jon Carr]

I have a strong feeling there will not be a lowere tier of weapon out side of the non carbon version. So upgrading to weapon from scarlet dragon may be a very hefty financial investment on the upgrade. It's left me in a place where I think I'll just keep shooting with my scarlet. Even when I deliver 4k. My 3k slomo with a hair of sharpening is nearly identical to 4k. Most of my clients never even need the 4k master... Though we always master in 4k. It would be awesome to have weapon and I'm sure it will be amazing but I'll have to use it in rental situations when the budget justifies.

I'm worried the new rumored camera from Panasonic may have to become my day to day camera when I can't rent a weapon. Which means I may have to sell scarlet. That will break my heart. I've shot nothing but red for my paying projects since the red one came out. Def will kill me to not have one anymore

I think that was the point of the dragon upgrade was to slowly bring the scarlet market up to a higher tier. Eventually one camera to shoot them all. Maybe that's why it's called weapon?

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I think that was the point of the dragon upgrade was to slowly bring the scarlet market up to a higher tier. Eventually one camera to shoot them all. Maybe that's why it's called weapon?

I, too, am thinking this is a possibility. It means "pay now or pay later" for the bigger jump from the Scarlet track to the Weapon level. Pay now means going Scarlet >> Epic->> Dragon for $19K before NAB. Pay later means Scarlet >> Scarlet Dragon for $9.5 before NAB and then $$$??? later, to get to Weapon level.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Way back when the concept of Scarlet was a $3k camera Red was nothing but excited... and we bought into the idea. A couple years afterward I got the sense that Red was feeling some buyer's remorse for all of us bottom feeders they had picked up. I am cheeky when I make that remark, but in a way I believe it. With the best of intentions they proposed the ultimate disruptive tools and did their best to deliver them. Scarlet ultimately cost more than originally planned and only those of us with a death grip on the dream weren't shaken.

Red delivered for us but honestly, when Red took us home they had their beer goggles on. They flirted with a Prosumer market but I always got the impression they were quickly getting back on track toward exclusively high end pro gear (At very reasonable cost).

I do expect Weapon to be the camera that unifies their product lines and their customer base.

I, too, am thinking this is a possibility. It means "pay now or pay later" for the bigger jump from the Scarlet track to the Weapon level. Pay now means going Scarlet >> Epic->> Dragon for $19K before NAB. Pay later means Scarlet >> Scarlet Dragon for $9.5 before NAB and then $$$??? later, to get to Weapon level.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Scott you might be right. I've got the same feeling, too. That's why I'm trying to get the question out there to see if it will be only one version in the end.

I have no insight but I feel that scarlet is a gateway drug which RED certainly knows and cares about - because Indy and prosumer people start to get into their eco system which is not to be taken lightly in my point of view...

If they would manage to split the boards from the sensor, I guess this could all be easier. Scarlet and epic as modules so to say. Or something like one basic camera model (scarlet&epic) and the additional boards in a HFR module (Epic)
EDIT: which might be improbable because they also need to differentiate the models (6K stills /6k motion) to not loose hi end customers to their lower models.

Also: if weapon is too expensive for scarlet users a lot of us won't be able to upgrade. And it feels as if they want us to be able to. Why else should they have changed their mind and allowed the scarlet d upgrades to weapon - which before was said to be a dead end.

 

[Brandon Kelly]

The other hard thing for me, is that Scarlet is an, around 10k camera body. Then to change the sensor you are at 20k, then weapon another 10k perhaps. But what about still having a camera brain that is around 10k, like a new scarlet that sells for 10k and sell my used scarlet for say 5k. But it seems the newer base model cameras go up in price. The scarlet was at a certain level when it came out for a certain price. Now say, the scarlet d is about the same level in comparison to technology based on advancements and what not. It makes sense in my head but I'm having problems putting it to words. What I'm trying to say is it would be nice to have the same scarlet at around 10k, and the new epic "weapon", scarlet weapon being around 10k, and epic weapon being around 25/30k. But they are obviously better cams then the original scarlet/epic. but you are still getting the same value per technology for that day and time basically.

Also, if you go scarlet d, then scarlet weapon, will it be a better choice than just an epic d?

 

[Scott Crawley]

Scarlet and Epic Dragon will remain in the store Jarred said, but for how long... 8 months... until stocks are eliminated or longer?

 

[Tehben Dean]

Based on previous generations of RED camera's once the're done upgrading and hype wears down and 2 years from now when Weapon is actually available to buy the price will level out to around $25k. So if Scarlet is filling your needs right now and you skip the dragon or epic upgrade then in a couple years you can save up that $19,000 you would have paid for the upgrade path + $6,000 - $4,000 from selling scarlet MX and just buy a new camera.

This is speculation and approximate numbers assuming RED follows it's track record. Jarred says you need to upgrade to dragon now to get a deal for Weapon but he also said it's not a crazy deal. My feeling is if you WANT WEAPON ASAP then the upgrade paths pay off (for Epic at least) but if you can wait until it's available on the open market it probably won't make that big a difference to sell your current cam and straight out buy Weapon.

I may be totally wrong, but it's something to think about.

I for one am perfectly happy with my Epic MX, it does what I need it to do and maybe in a couple years when the next RED cam is out and the kinks are ironed out I will buy a new one. I doubt there will ever be as good a deal as the original RED one to Epic trade-in. And they dropped the Epic cost by $10k shortly after anyways.

 

[Jamon Lewis]

I am a Scarlet owner/lover. But, I have assumed it would only be a matter of time before I moved up the RED chain. When the trade-in plan was announced, I assumed I would eventually go to Epic with the possibility open to take another step to Epic Dragon. I eschewed the Scarlet to Scarlet Dragon path because a) it seemed like a closed path, no way to keep on the upward path, and b) i figured a brand new Epic body was better than an "upgrade" of the current body (truth be told, however, my particular Scarlet has been very reliable and well cared for).

The recent price increase on the Dragon upgrades didn't really bother me too much because I could still go, first to Epic, and then worry abut where we were with Dragon later; but I always had the upgrade option.

Then, the world shifted with the introduction of Weapon and the resulting need to have a Dragon in order to stay in the upward path going forward. All of sudden, Scarlet to Scarlet Dragon looked better but then there was that pesky extra $3K (total of $12.5K) to upgrade to Scarlet dragon, which only made my existing Scarlet body worth $2K when comparing a brand new purchase at $14.5K. Similarly, the 2-step upgrade to Epic Dragon would be $22K; a lot of cash in a short time and also, only making my Scarlet body worth $2K compared to a new purchase.

My first thought was to sell my current Scarlet body. If I could clear $5K for it, I'd be better off. I also thought I would then be able to sell off my Side SSD Module with the camera (since Weapon will require Mini-mags). But, lo and behold, Jarred was feeling generous last night and the upgrade path to Dragons was dialed back to the old $9.5K. Suddenly my Scarlet body was worth $5K in trade-in/upgrade again. WooHoo!

Now the dilemma of what to do with the Side SSD Module? Good news always brings with it decisions and trade-offs. lol If I upgrade my Scarlet body to Scarlet Dragin, I am still "stuck" with the "old" SSD system. Will it be saleable by itself? Seems like it might be tough; as people move up the chain, newer folks in will probably buy their bodies already equipped with the SSD module. So, trade in is easier than selling but what abut the SSD system? Arrrggh!

While mostly talking to myself here (with the possibility that others have been noodling the same things), I am wondering what others are thinking about the transition of the SSD to mini-mag process.

Terry I think you've been the voice of this dilemma. I am and have been in the same boat. For me post is the biggest factor. Even though there will be a new RCX that uses more of the GPU of your computer, I'm sure you will need a computer with beefy specs to handle especially dragon footage, so with even the latest MBP a Rocket or Rocket-X for Dragon footage would be a welcome help especially if your like me and already have $5k plus already into a Rocket. So it's either Scarlet to a very capable Epic MX and still be able to use the Rocket I already have or Scarlet Dragon and have a Red Rocket and that it will be completely useless with Dragon footage (Please somebody tell me that I'm wrong and that something has changed on this front).

Last night I saw the trailer "The Age of Adeline" then IMDB it and saw that it was shot with Dragon i'm like "Geez, I want a dragon!!" Then when I saw the trailer for "Serena" starring Bradley Cooper and Jennifer Lawrence which was shot on Epic MX, i'm like "If Epic MX was good enough to shoot this with, what would I have to complain about if a Epic MX was the only camera I could have for the rest of my life?!?!"

With that said, the price dropping back down and the fact of having the OPTION go forward has basically had me make up my mind to go Scarlet Dragon. NOW to your point about the SSD, the current 1.8 system is fine for current Dragon specs so I'll roll with it for now and if I do take the option to "Weaponize" the mini mag transition will just be something i'll have to factor in when upgrading, the current 1.8 mags are fine for Scarlet Dragon now.

 

[Mathias Erichsen]

Hehe! I'm had the same dilemma.
On friday my Scarlet arrived RED HQ in Irvine for her Epic MX upgrade. I was oh so happy with this. I mean - AN EPIC! It's been a dream for so long.
But then on friday Jarred told us to go Dragon and that MX is over... This made me stretch a bit longer and changed my order from an Epic upgrade to a Scarlet D upgrade, my sales rep fixes this. Then it dawned on me that this would only give me $2000 for my Scarlet and I quickly changed my order to a new Scarlet D + my old Scarlet in return, as I figured I'd be able to sell my old Scarlet for more than $2000. My sales rep fixes. THEN the upgrade price went down and I changed my order one more time to a Scarlet D upgrade... My sales rep must think I'm crazy with all these fast changes...
My conclution was that I'm not ready to jump off the RED ride. I want to be able to upgrade if something amazing happens and rather have fewer fps but keeping the dream of an Epic equivalent in the new Weapon line..

I got a 240GB 1.8" SSD a week ago, a bit sad I could not return it and go MiniMag, but I'll probably use it for a year until it's my time to get a Weapon. Hopfully it want loos all re-sale value by then..

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Yes - one thing I have to remind myself of is that it will probably be a year or more until I go Weapon and need mini-mag.

 

[Jamon Lewis]

That 2000 native ISO on Dragon changes things too.

 

[Brian Boyer]

Why else should they have changed their mind and allowed the scarlet d upgrades to weapon - which before was said to be a dead end.

Perhaps I missed a statement from Jarred or someone else at RED but I don't think this is accurate. As far as I know, Jarred stated there would be no upgrade path from Scarlet Dragon to Epic Dragon. That's still the case.

Redusers speculated that meant there was no further upgrade path for Scarlet Dragon. As I recall, when asked directly, RED was mum on the subject. If you think about it, with what we now know about Weapon, they had to be or else they would've tipped their hand before they were ready.

This is why I think Weapon is going to have a tiered structure - entry level and flagship. Why allow an upgrade from the entry level to the flagship of the old body style when you're planning an entry level and flagship of the new body style?

If I'm right, there'll probably be the option to upgrade from Scarlet Dragon to the flagship Weapon.

I don't think RED changed their minds on anything in that regard. They just don't tell us everything they're working on. Of course, I could be wrong.

EDIT: According to Jarred, the Carbon Weapon will actually do more than the non-carbon versions, so maybe there might even be three tiers. Or, maybe just two tiers and the Scarlet Dragon owners are going to have to pony up more cash to be on par with the Epic Dragon --> Weapon upgraders.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?128336-Dragon-upgrades&p=1473340&viewfull=1#post1473340

 

[Brian Boyer]

Now the dilemma of what to do with the Side SSD Module? Good news always brings with it decisions and trade-offs. lol If I upgrade my Scarlet body to Scarlet Dragin, I am still "stuck" with the "old" SSD system. Will it be saleable by itself? Seems like it might be tough; as people move up the chain, newer folks in will probably buy their bodies already equipped with the SSD module. So, trade in is easier than selling but what abut the SSD system? Arrrggh!

Jarred said you could trade-in your 1.8" SSD for the Mini-mag SSD when you upgrade to Weapon. As it looks to be a new design, even the people with the current Mini-mag SSD are going to have to get switched (I'm assuming that will automatically be part of the upgrade price).

If you stick with Scarlet Dragon without upgrading to Weapon, you could tell RED to slap the Mini-mag on it and ask them to keep the old one, but it's probably going to cost you the full $1,500.

Remember, it's not necessary to have a Dragon before NAB. You just have to have purchased a Dragon before NAB. You could always wait until a few days before NAB to see what info comes out by then. You still have another month or so after that to decide what to do before the lines switch over to Dragon --> Weapon upgrades.

 

[Eric Santiago]

Based on previous generations of RED camera's once the're done upgrading and hype wears down and 2 years from now when Weapon is actually available to buy the price will level out to around $25k. So if Scarlet is filling your needs right now and you skip the dragon or epic upgrade then in a couple years you can save up that $19,000 you would have paid for the upgrade path + $6,000 - $4,000 from selling scarlet MX and just buy a new camera...

Where I am this is a no brainer.

There is no market battle between MX and DRAGON.

There is only the battle of the budget as in what can you afford to shoot with.

I got into this fall 2012 not knowing what I was up against but its been a great ride of late.

If Im going to upgrade it will be towards an EPIC MX and that's it.

Since Im competing with mostly C100s in my area I think I can live with my Scarlet for at least a year.

I am happy that RED has given us options for the future.

Again its options.