Newbie questions regarding on set equipment

[Eugene Zuyev]

We're preparing to shoot the first video on our newly bought RED camera.

One of the emerging questions is how should we equip the set, particularly the director's place. Our local experts say that we should get some JVC 2K monitor with the HD-SDI input and connect it directly to the camera body. That will give us excellent color quality and 2K when viewing the footage from the RED camera, and 720p when recording. Is it the only choice?

The second question is, what do some crews use the RED Rocket card for? (I mean - on set, with MacBook Pro's and MAXX Digital portable PCI-E thingy).

Generally, what computers / monitors do use on set?

Thanks in advance and sorry for newbie questions I'm excited by this forum, and trying to learn as fast as I can. Any information is appreciated!

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

One of the emerging questions is how should we equip the set, particularly the director's place. Our local experts say that we should get some JVC 2K monitor with the HD-SDI input and connect it directly to the camera body. That will give us excellent color quality and 2K when viewing the footage from the RED camera, and 720p when recording. Is it the only choice?

I'm assuming that you have a RED One camera.

During recording the camera can only deliver 720p, and its not a particularly good 720p output.

Even on playback from the camera the image is pretty poor.

So, I recommend using a nice computer monitor with an HDMI input. On a budget you can connect it directly to the RED, if you have a bit more money and need better accuracy, then get an SDI to HDMI converter, and place that unit at the monitor on AC power.

The second question is, what do some crews use the RED Rocket card for? (I mean - on set, with MacBook Pro's and MAXX Digital portable PCI-E thingy).

They use it for better quality real time playback of footage than you can get in the camera, and for full quality inspection and possibly transcoding of footage. (A lot of productions like to leave the R3D workflow very early on in production.)

Basically they are checking to make sure the images are the quality the production needs, and starting some of the post production process on set.

Generally, what computers / monitors do use on set?

You already sort of answered your own question.

On the low end people use MacBook Pro computers with a hard drive attached by eSATA via expresscard and a CF card reader or RED Drive attached by Firewire 800. This is used solely to copy footage.

Stepping up you have the system you mentioned above. A Rocket card in a PCI expansion chassis connected to the MacBook Pro via Expresscard. Camera media is still connected by Firewire 800.

The next step up is a Mac Pro, with a Rocket card 2 eSATA ports and possibly a connection to an external RAID array. This sort of system can also use a PCIe i/o card to display a truer image of the recording.

Usually this system is used to copy RED footage from camera media and back it up, as well as quality control and image evaluation and add some preliminary corrections, usually with the DPs input.

Usually on set with RED these are the systems that get the better production displays. I usually recommend a Dreamcolor monitor with an adaptor so they can be driven by the video i/o card, not the graphics display card.


My advice to you is to hire an experienced RED DIT - and their cart- for at least your first few shoots. You may choose to do all this on your own, but its worthwhile to gain some experience yourself under expert guidance before trying to take it all on yourself.

 

[Eugene Zuyev]

Thank you for such a detailed reply!

So, I recommend using a nice computer monitor with an HDMI input. On a budget you can connect it directly to the RED, if you have a bit more money and need better accuracy, then get an SDI to HDMI converter, and place that unit at the monitor on AC power.

Interesting! Do you think Blackmagic SDI to HDMI mini-converter is good for this?

Also, do you think using a computer with a HD-SDI capture card (connected to the RED One HD-SDI port) is also a viable option? Or does it not make any sense, perhaps, in terms of color quality?

This sort of system can also use a PCIe i/o card to display a truer image of the recording.

Could you please give me an example of a particular model of such card?

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Interesting! Do you think Blackmagic SDI to HDMI mini-converter is good for this?

Yes

You could also use slightly older HD-SDI to DVI converters, and I think there are emerging DisplayPort adapters as well.

Also, do you think using a computer with a HD-SDI capture card (connected to the RED One HD-SDI port) is also a viable option? Or does it not make any sense, perhaps, in terms of color quality?

Well it would work, but I don't think it makes any sense.

You should use with the SDI to HDMI solution mentioned above.

Further, I think its one of the last parts of a RED One shoot you should upgrade. I wouldn't use a production monitor on set with a RED until ran out of other things to spend money on. Including a production monitor for the DIT and a fully staffed and equipped on set editorial department

Could you please give me an example of a particular model of such card?

A BlackMagic Decklink Extreme 3D+ usually covers all the bases, and its relatively cheap.

Just to be clear, I am suggesting you be "cheap" on the monitors directly connected to the RED, because the RED One video outputs suck anyway. If you are on a budget its a smart place to save money.

The DIT cart is the first time you can really see the picture.

Put differently, the RED One's video outputs can be considered a video tap, while the results at the DIT cart are more like dailies.

As a final note- this is all about the RED One. I expect a much improved HD-SDI and HDMI output from EPIC/Scarlet cameras.

 

[Eugene Zuyev]

Another portion of newbie questions.

Just to be clear, I am suggesting you be "cheap" on the monitors directly connected to the RED, because the RED One video outputs suck anyway.

Understood. Would you still choose a IPS panel though (rather than some cheap TNs)?

They use it for better quality real time playback of footage

A bit unrelated to the topic, but still. We tried to play a small 4K footage from RED One on a powerful, newly-built PC with an overclocked processor / lots of memory, using Adobe Premiere CS5, and it worked just fine without a RED Rocket card. Was it some wrong 4K footage? Or did we still sacrifice some quality?

But I guess RED Rocket + MAXX Digital Mobile Rocket is the only way to play footage if we go with a "MacBook Pro" way for the DIT cart.

A BlackMagic Decklink Extreme 3D+ usually covers all the bases, and its relatively cheap.

I'm confused :sad: I thought Decklink Extreme does the same job as a RED Rocket just not as fast.

Do the AJA cards serve the same purpose?

Speaking of storage. As far as I understand, if we choose a Mac Pro for the DIT cart, we may also get a RAID card for it and simply do the RAID 0+1 out of 4 internal drives, so we don't really need an external RAID array and a PCI-e eSATA card in the Mac Pro. Or am I missing something here?

But if we go with a MacBook Pro with ExpressSlot34, we would have to get an ExpressSlot34 -> eSATA adapter and an external RAID to copy footage. Would you recommend any trustworthy external RAID system with an eSATA port?

P.S. You recommended to hire a DIT cart. We would really love to do that, rather than bother people with stupid questions, so we could get the job done efficiently and educate ourselves quickly — but unfortunately there are simply no RED DITs in the nearby area and the whole notion of "DIT cart" is new to the local industry, despite there are at least 15 RED One cameras in possession of local filming companies.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Would you still choose a IPS panel though (rather than some cheap TNs)?

Yes. Mostly because of the viewing angle.

I can't tell you how many times I've had a producer complain that the colors were "all wrong" just to eventually figure out they were standing outside the viewing angles for the monitor.

A bit unrelated to the topic, but still. We tried to play a small 4K footage from RED One on a powerful, newly-built PC with an overclocked processor / lots of memory, using Adobe Premiere CS5, and it worked just fine without a RED Rocket card. Was it some wrong 4K footage? Or did we still sacrifice some quality?

You sacrificed quality.

Premiere plays back with reduced debayer quality and only at 1080p or so.

The question is if it matters to your work.

A lot of RED users are delivering 720p (or lower!) to the web. The vast majority never deliver more than 1080p.

So, CS5's playback with a good CUDA card is fine.

If you are delivering for cinema or other high end applications, then you need to be able to look at better quality in real time- so a Rocket is the way to go.

I like to have a Rocket on set so we can search quickly for technical issues in the footage. (pixel peeping)

For most projects what you saw on CS5 is plenty during offline editorial.

I like to online and finish with full quality debayer though, so that's when the Rocket kicks in again.

But I guess RED Rocket + MAXX Digital Mobile Rocket is the only way to play footage if we go with a "MacBook Pro" way for the DIT cart.

Yes

I'm confused :sad: I thought Decklink Extreme does the same job as a RED Rocket just not as fast.

Do the AJA cards serve the same purpose?

No.

The Rocket's main purpose is to provide real time full quality full resolution debayering of RED camera footage.

It happens to have i/o ports, but those are only used at present by Storm and RedCine. These ports are secondary.

The Blackmagic and AJA cards are i/o cards. Their purpose is to accurately get video feeds in and out of the computer.

Speaking of storage. As far as I understand, if we choose a Mac Pro for the DIT cart, we may also get a RAID card for it and simply do the RAID 0+1 out of 4 internal drives, so we don't really need an external RAID array and a PCI-e eSATA card in the Mac Pro. Or am I missing something here?

Don't try to be cheap on storage- it will bite you in unexpected ways. In this case your suggestion will force you to co-mingle data and system/applications.

The way you are suggesting if your system drive crashes, you lose all your project data as well. That makes no sense.

I store all client data on external RAID arrays. There are so many choices in how to do this.

An eSATA card and a Data Robotics DROBO 5 bay enclosure is easy and fast to set up.

 

[Eugene Zuyev]

Thank you for the answers!

So we've got a SDI-to-HDMI converter this week, works good! The only small issue: as an experiment I've tried to hook it up with the DVI monitor (Dell) via HDMI to DVI converter and it did not work. I guess I should ask Blackmagic or just use it exclusively with the HDMI monitors.

Generally, why do DITs use Macs? Are there any Mac OS X specific apps that are often used on set?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Generally, why do DITs use Macs? Are there any Mac OS X specific apps that are often used on set?

RED workflow is becoming more platform agnostic by the day.
But most toys come first on mac.

Clipfinder and Storm are two good examples.

But with RCX becomming as stable as it currently is, I guess the on-set preference for Macs maybe have become less well founded.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

RED workflow is becoming more platform agnostic by the day.
But most toys come first on mac.

Clipfinder and Storm are two good examples.

But with RCX becomming as stable as it currently is, I guess the on-set preference for Macs maybe have become less well founded.

Agreed, but to expand...

A lot of productions like to start logging and transferring footage into the NLE on set.

(I think that's a step too far for the DIT station, and would look for an on set editorial department for this task)

It makes sense then to use the same NLE as editorial will eventually use.

OS X is the only OS that supports all the major NLEs. (Final Cut, Avid MC5, Premiere, Smoke)

Then you should also remember that Apple Mac hardware can boot Windows natively- so there is even more flexibility if needed.

The DIT's choice of hardware is really about flexibility and capability.

Capability is more important of course... which is why I prefer to focus the DIT's tasks so their system can be more specific to their work.

Fortunately for those DITs who are asked to do more, they only have to come up with additional budget for software- because the hardware of a Mac Pro is excellent for the task at hand.

 

[Eugene Zuyev]

A bit unrelated to the topic, but still. We tried to play a small 4K footage from RED One on a powerful, newly-built PC with an overclocked processor / lots of memory, using Adobe Premiere CS5, and it worked just fine without a RED Rocket card. Was it some wrong 4K footage? Or did we still sacrifice some quality?

You sacrificed quality.

Premiere plays back with reduced debayer quality and only at 1080p or so.

I was finally able to test it once again. You are right. By default Premiere played 1/2 of original size, thus 2K, and indeed it worked just fine. But when I set it to play full-size, it turned into a bad slide show.

Speaking of debayer quality, by default it was set to "high" (the highest possible setting) and changing it to "low" did not make any difference nor in image quality, nor in performance. But perhaps I'm missing something here.

Do you use a dual-CPU Mac Pro? Does CPU/memory/GPU of a Mac Pro matter if you already use a RED Rocket card?

 

[Eugene Zuyev]

OK I've just uploaded the same footage on my home quad-core Mac Pro 3,1 ("early 2008") with 4GB memory and ATI 4890 GPU (thus no CUDA or whatsoever) and tried playing it from the proxies.

The half-size proxy plays almost as good (or, as bad) as on the aforementioned beast PC with Core i7 960 with hyperthreading / 4.2Ghz / 12GB / GTX480 on Premiere with Mercury GPU acceleration.

Is it related to debayer quality?

I'm puzzled. :blink:

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

OK I've just uploaded the same footage on my home quad-core Mac Pro 3,1 ("early 2008") with 4GB memory and ATI 4890 GPU (thus no CUDA or whatsoever) and tried playing it from the proxies.

The half-size proxy plays almost as good (or, as bad) as on the aforementioned beast PC with Core i7 960 with hyperthreading / 4.2Ghz / 12GB / GTX480 on Premiere with Mercury GPU acceleration.

Is it related to debayer quality?

I'm puzzled. :blink:

You are puzzled that a professional workstation outperforms a consumer gaming system on a professional task?

People tend to forget that it isn't all about the numbers they present up front, like CPU speed. There are all sorts of other considerations- just let me say that the Mac Pro is a hell of a computer. It doesn't surprise me that it equals or outperforms your much "better" Core i7 computer.

Of course, Mercury- if properly set up, should give you SOME advantage... So I think you may have some other bandwidth limitation, I am guessing disk based.

How exactly is the drive this footage is stored on connected?

Also what Version of RedCode was used to record?

If they used redcode 42 on set, then you need a drive that can sustain at least 42MB/second of read speed.

That requires Firewire 800 or eSATA with a fast hard disk. (7200rpm or faster I'd think)

I really recommend eSATA with at least a two disk RAID 0.

Aside from that potential limitation, without Mercury I'd expect the same practical performance from your older Mac Pro and the Core i7. (So for example in RedCine without a Rocket, the Mac Pro will be about as fast as the Core i7)

 

[Stephen Strangways]

Very important:
R3D Data Manager
http://www.r3ddata.com

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Very important:
R3D Data Manager
http://www.r3ddata.com

Yup, but even with that, you're not 100% sure until you have a successfull transcode for offlines...