Newbie Question(Apologizes if the answer is obvious)

[Dan Hudgins]

Cost vs. Quality

Cost vs. Quality

Dan, I'm going to try and get a hold of my windows laptop again and try to download your program (it appeared to have under system requirements, DOS, so figured that was Windows)
Thanks again

My programs may not work well on OS above Windows XP Home SP3. At any rate on a PC computer that has a CD/DVD drive you can download the ISO file for FreeDOS (tm) and burn that to a CD, then you can boot the computer using the FreeDOS CD, it supports FAT32. If the dirve in your laptop is NTFS I am not sure it it can be used (under FreeDOS) without swaping the harddrive. FreeDOS comes with CD and Mouse drivers that work with the serial and PS2 ports. To run my programs on the set to do a keyframe color correction might be possable, but with a RAWish camera like REDONE all you have to do is to make sure you have enough fill light and do not over expose and you will have enough data to do the color correction later. If you are concerned about the lighting ratios you can use standins for the actors and do some test exposures on the set days before the shoot.

To run my programs it is better to use a desktop computer, an older one will work as long as its BIOS for the hard drive controler is not too old, some computers more that 5 years old cannot work with harddrives larger than about 120GB, and to work with 2K or 4K frames you need at least 750GB for a minute or two. To edit with my system you need about 32 to 64GB of disk space for the low res frames for all your shots, and maybe 128GB for the full res keyframes, after you make the low res frames and pick a key frame for the shot you can copy the full res frames for that shot to a backup disk (under Windows XP Home SP3 the backup disk can be 1.5TB SATA disks since Windows XP Home SP3 supports both EIDE and SATA disks) then delete all the full res frames except the key frame used for grading of that shot, that way you can work on all the frames for grading and editing and sound mixing with one 750GB drive (some of the sound files may need to be on more drives.) My programs can use more than one drive for files and under XP Home you can use SATA drives, so you may be able to load the computer with enough drives to hold one reel at a time at 2K resolution, and then swap the drives using drive drawers to do more reels.

For Disk compatibility between FreeDOS, Windows ME (for DANCINEL.EXE (tm)), and Windows XP Home SP3 on the same computer it is best to format the disks FAT32 rather than NTFS, since XP is crippled to 32GB by microsoft, you need to download a freeware program called FAT32FORMAT.EXE and use that under XP to format large disks FAT32 (follow the instructions at the FAT32FORMAT.EXE web site.) Since MAC computers can read FAT32, using FAT32 lets you work with anything, MAC, LINUX, DOS, ME, and XP on the same computer or moving the data disks around.

The main problem to come up is that on some computers the video board will not work at 1024x768 modes with the refresh rate within the monitor's range under XP Home SP2, or other video mode issues under XP. On my Brother's computer 1024x768 works on his GeForce under XP, but to run FreeDOS we need to unplug the video board and use the on motherboard video, then things work OK for grading. I used 1024x768 since that is 1/2 size for 2K and 1/4 size for 4K in the grading screens, you can make Color Correction Grading adjustments then press control-C to get a full screen color display, and control plus R, G, or B to look at the separations fill screen. I was told by someone that there are known issues it seems in parts of XP, and Microsoft basicly said that they could offer no solution as far as I could make out. One solution to the XP+ issues is to boot the computer with the Windows ME "rescue" boot floppy, or boot with the FreeDOS CD, ME and FreeDOS support large disks up to 2.1TB, and do not have the video problems if your video board BIOS suports VESA 1.2 modes. Video boards with the SIS chips seem to have the fewest problems, next would be some GeForce boards like GeForce 6200 256MB AGP.

Feel free to e-mail me about using my programs to make movies with.

==

About the cost of sound recording on the set some points,

1) Try ebay.com, people buy things and don't use them, you can find recording equipment lightly used for low prices.

2) Because you will be very busy on the set using a mic mixer for anything other than its preamp might not be a good idea, it would be better to mix the mics later in the sound editing and mixing software. If you have a WAV recorder for each microphone, then you can filter, blop, and edit each microphone's sound on a seperate track in the mix. When an actor turns his head you may need to "pan" mix from one mic to another, if you try to do a mic pan on the set the soundman may blow it and wreck the souund for that take, if you do it in post you have the original tracks to fall back on.

Many WAV recorders are made now, some small enough to use on your actors without the need for wireless mics which can fail with RF interference or not having a high gain antenna on the receiver.

If other words if you have 8 mics on set use 4 WAV recorders to record 8 tracks, the REDONE has 4 tracks (?), so you could mix to those if needed for scratch track to make sure you get sync.

The clap board guy will need to shout out the shot and take numbers so the laveler/lapel mics can pick up his voice, since the close mics have the record gain turned down, you will need the voice shot and take on each track to avoid getting mixed up in post, you will also need the slate clap on all tracks since you will not have SMPTE code on the WAV recorders being warn by the actors.

VHS Hi-Fi is a cheep way to record tracks if you cannot afford many WAV recorders now, used VHS Hi-Fi recorders should cost less than $50, use good tape and SP mode. Video is crystal controlled and should hold sync for about +/- one frame in one to four minutes. The mic mixer or preamp is used to get line level for the inputs to the recorder.

You can build mic preamps using JFET Op-Amps for maybe $10, a few more parts and you have a mic mixer as well.

Links:

http://www.freedos.org/freedos/files/ (select large disk FAT32 mode when run)

http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/SONY-PCM-D50...-Recorder_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQitemZ360106221374

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=mic+preamp&oe=utf-8&cid=665414056016431836#ps-sellers

http://www.ridgecrop.demon.co.uk/index.htm?fat32format.htm

 

[Imran Farouk]

Just to make sure

Just to make sure

I'm guessing by wave recorder u mean the
"http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/SONY-PCM-D50-...mZ360106221374"
link you gave me...
and by 8 mics,left and right input?though to my understanding these only take 1 mic input?
Cause i was trying to work out if you meant mic'ing 8 actors and then using only 4 wave recorders to capture them...which I don't understand how that works
though if you meant through one of these
http://www.sounddevices.com/products/744t.htm
digital recorders...then i completely understand what you mean
Though I thought mixers weren't for the "panning" and more for the audio levels that is recordered,like if the actor whispers you could up the sound and capture a lot more...(i think the actual phrase instead of sound is DB but im not sure :bleh: )

I'll download the program when I'm back in Singapore as the school net will probably take forever doing it,It'll be a refershing site to see something that sounds simplier then most editing programs and may not mess up as much as FCP(had issues with deleting tracks and what not during the music video we shot)
The program will work for non-4k footage I'm guessing and better too...?

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Stereo?

Stereo?

I'm guessing by wave recorder u mean...

Though I thought mixers weren't for the "panning" ...

I'll download the program when I'm back in Singapore as the school net will probably take forever doing it,It'll be a refershing site to see something that sounds simplier then most editing programs and may not mess up as much as FCP(had issues with deleting tracks and what not during the music video we shot)
The program will work for non-4k footage I'm guessing and better too...?

I would assume that a recorder with two microphones would have a stereo microphone input, so that with a Y cable you could hook two microphones to one stereo input?

The db gain on the mic input of the WAV recorder shoud have its own level control, so you would not need a preamp or mixer to record.

Some time the sound engineer on location will adjust the gain values on the mic mixer, and some mixers have "pan" knobs.

From my view it is best to keep the record levels for average at -20db (0db being 100% signal or signal clip) and do all the level adjustments in post. With 16bit or 24bit recording you have so much range you do not need to ride the record levels like one would with analog tape recorders (VHS Hi-Fi is FM recording with high dynamic range it is not the same as analog tape).

The reason you want to keep the record level fixed is that in post when you use a noise gate, if the record level is changed during recording the background noise will go up and down than that will upset the threshold settings on your noise gates. Also after the noise gate you will need a compressor, and both the noise gate and compressor settings need a fixed level on the recording to operate without needing adjustments to compensate for the changing record gain.

When you are on the set have the actors talk or shout as loud as they will in the shot and fix the record gain so that the VU meter never gets above -6db on the recorder, then just record at that fixed gain.

If you get noise in the recordings it is probably from the mic not being close enough to the actors mouth, you realy need to be within three feet or less most of the time, closer for noisy places. The boom mic should be just out of the frame but not in the image when the camera pans or tilts so the guy with the boom pole needs to have strong arms to deal with the movements, and not droop.

When location recording was to a single 16mm, 17.5mm, or 35mm mag film recorder, or a single 1/4 mono tape, the mic mixer needed to mix all the microphones in real time and the sound guy might need to twiddle the mic gains to cut mics that could pick up noise and adjust the gains to keep within the narrow S/N range of the old analog recorders, even worse in the days when they recorded direct to optical film where you only had about 20db to 30db range on a single track! When you turn one mic gain up and another mic gain down you are in effect doing a pan, pan controls are just two pots together wired so one is in reverse of the other.

Today you can record on a 80db to 90db S/N range and any number of tracks at once with good sync. So you do not need to do a "mix" on location, it can be done better in post.

==

My software will work with any size or type of files if you do not need to do CC, but you need to convert whatever files into something that can be used to make the "proxy" files for seeing what you are doing while editing, in other words you can edit DPX or JPG or anything else to make an output set since the comands that make the output set just copy the files. If you want to do CC and use my programs to make the proxy files to see sync while editing then the source files need to be 48bpp TIF or 24bp BMP.

Any image size from like 160x120 to about 8K should work. I have not tested past "6K" with a TIF frame from an ARRI 6K film scanner, that seemed to go through my CC without issues. Any aspect ratio should work, but the program displays them full screen to get the maximum number of pixels, so using a CRT monitor may work better for Grading since you can adjust the screen aspect ratio with the monitor controls. Also LCD monitors change brightness as you move your head arround so CRT monitors are better for Grading. I use a 22" CRT monitor that works up to 2048x1536 but they are multi-sync and can work down to 320x200 and every resolution between.

Yes, one of my goals was to use FreeDOS FAT32 to avoid windows programs crashing all the time since the DI will take months+ of computing you want the computers to run with UPS power backup night and day for weeks without a crash or error. Windows ME "rescue" boot floppy is like a DOS prompt when the computer boots, windows does not load, so it may be more stable than running the programs with windows loaded. Once you get inside DANCAD3D.EXE (tm) or DANCAD87.EXE (tm) it does not matter much what OS is running except that you may get the best speed under ME boot floppy.

If the CPU in the computer does not have a math co-processor built in DANCAD87.EXE (tm) may emulate one, but you should check to see if DANCAD3D.EXE (tm) runs faster. When the CPU has a math co-processor built in then DANCAD87.EXE (tm) may run faster for Grading and color correction tasks. the 87 part of the name comes from the old 8087 math co-processor chip, the mate to the 8088 CPU...

Its best to keep a backup of any important files even if the programs seem bullet proof since things can get messed up. If there is an fault or major error it is best to quit the program and re-boot the computer.

Sometimes under Windows 98SE the mouse may go dead if you leave the computer idle for a long time, I don't thing it is a problem in my program since I have not seen that in Windows 95 OSR2. Not sure if it happens under ME which is much like 98SE. Anyway, if the mouse goes dead, you will need to use the keys to get out of the program and close the DOS window if you are running in a DOS window full screen mode. Also under DOS window exit the parts of the program that use SVGA graphics (to a text mode screen with blue background) before you press the windows key or otherwise pop out of my program to the desktop or windows may not let you back into the program. Again I do not see what I can do about that.

The video mode prompt at the first run of DANCAD87.EXE (tm) asks for the video type, that would be type for SVGA on almost any new computer, if it will not work the VGA mode might get you in but you would need another video board to do Grading and view the high resolution graphics modes. An older SIS video board with old PCI or AGP bus could work, those may be like $5 on ebay or something.

Having a filmout made from 4K TIF frames is not cheep. With my film recorder program DANCINEL.EXE (tm) you would probably use a 1600x1200 LCD monitor, so not quite as sharp, but film prints are not projected in focus much of the time anyway. 4K is good in the REDONE since you want to oversample in the camera using a Bayer filter to get true RGB data at above 1280x720, 1280x720 is the lowest resolution true RGB that can be used for movie projection in a theatre, anything lower than that and the aliasing is too visable. You can output both "flat" and 'scope on 1600x1200 by making part of the screen unused. You can also use a squeeze lens to reduce the 1200 size to get more lines than doing a letter box of 1600x900 in 1600x1200.

My programs are nothing fancy, they just do what you would with a film splicer. There are some commands that can be used for limited "opticals" by using the macro language, and the main menu preview commad can be used to make scrolling titles, but later I hope to integrate those tasks more into the Files Utilities Kinema Edit list command. For now, it is possable to get fades, lap desolves, and title supers through the macro language, at least as far as I know I have not tested every part of that yet, some macro tasks are still 24bpp but since those tasks are on Graded frames the loss would be almost invisible when cut into the other footage.

Best wishes for success in your projects...