Newbie Question(Apologizes if the answer is obvious)

[Imran Farouk]

Hi guys,firstly a Happy New Year to all REDusers and to RED,I know this will sound stupid...and I promise I've gone through this audio forum front and back looking for the answer and googled it but everyone seems to not be as specific as possible..even youtube'd this...

How do all of you professionals and 'amateurs'(though if you know the answer your obviously not ) record audio for movies...features and shorts?
Not meaning specific to the Red One...but I mean as in does everyone go through a mixer and into the laptop or how?Cause some say they use a mixer and don't use the camera XLR(or mini on the red one) at all...
(I know I should try and go on a set but i kind of don't have time with my A levels)if possible do you guys have a picture of your set ups?or list of the equipment you use?
I know sounds very important on shorts and features so I'd like to get learn as quickly as possible
Sorry if it does sound like a stupid question or if I missed a thread that answers this:waaa:

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Any crystal controlled recorder...

Any crystal controlled recorder...

record audio for movies...features and shorts?

You can use any crystal controlled audio recorder to record sound for film use.

If the camera is running at 23.976+fps rather than 24fps you may need to adjust the length of the audio in an audio editing program like Magix Audio Studio etc.

You can use:

1) Built in REDONE audio

2) WAV recorder, these are very small a bit bigger than a cell phone etc.

3) Laptop computer with WAV recording software

4) MiniDisk recorder

5) Camcorder, these are good if you zoom in on the actors mouth so you can loop (ADR) the lipsync later.

6) VCR (HI-FI FM recording) with the video coming from from a stable source.

It is best not to use tape recorders any longer since you need to record 60Hz or 50Hz pilot tone or SMPTE LTC timecode and resolve the sync later.

Crystal controlled sound recorders are stable to about one frame in four minutes plus or minus. If you use an external sound recorder you need a slate clap board to get a head sync mark to sync up the audio later.

Sync sound is not used much on "better" (someone seems to have found fault with my opinion of better, so pick a word to replace it if you like) feature films, most of the dialog gets replaced and the sounds are added on multi-tracks.

My "freeish" sound mixing software gives you 256 tracks for each of 10000 shots and 256 tracks that run the length of the film for after "picture lock" so sound can run over cuts, it works like a full sound mixing studio's mag-film dubbers, but better since the sound is digital and you do not pick up noise and distortions on multi-pass mixing.

One thing to think about when purchasing a WAV recorder is the battery life and record time, you will be busy so you do not want to have to turn the recorder on and off all the time, its better to put a recorder on each actor and let them run, later you can fast forward to pick out the slate claps in your WAV editing software (the claps should be wider than the other parts of the waveform and stand out.)

Since digital recording does not have headroom like analog tape, you should record the average level down to -20db or less to avoid clipping.

 

[Imran Farouk]

Thanks Dan for the info
guess i'll have to go buy a couple WAV recorders
Generally how many forms of audio recording do you use on set?
As in, would you do REDone audio recording + WAV recorders + the camcorder?

Thanks again

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Most common scenario I've run across on feature sets is that the sound mixer sends audio to the camera so dailies will already have sound synced up, plus the sound person records primary sound for post to some sort of hard drive-based system and sometimes records a DAT (tape) back-up as well.

Just a few years ago it was DAT as the primary sound and a Nagra as the back-up...

Last show I was on, the production recordist used an Aaton Cantar X2:
http://www.aaton.com/products/sound/cantar/index.php

But there are so many recording solutions today.

 

[Giancarlo Bianchi]

Imran, I assume you are asking this because you have a project in mind, before you go spending a lot of money on any recorder, it would be better if you told us what camera and conditions are you planing to record.
As a beginner, you`ll be better recording directly into any camera that has an XLR input, and put the on camera auto limiter function, so your sound doesnt clip.
Also if you`re recording with a boom (you mostly will), I recomend that you inform yourself of the different types of mics that are out there. There are from ambient to directional, and then you have the dynamic microphones, that putting it simple, are for studio (sound studio) recording.
Also, I think you can google for it, there are different technics of recording audio, and with a directional mic you should be always directing the front to the mouth of the actor, keeping it infront and about 2 feet away from the player (depending on the type of shot you have to throw back or if it is a wide angle shot even use wireless mics).

 

[Giancarlo Bianchi]

Another thing, if you`re interesting in buying a field recorder, but are on a more limited budget (the Cantar is extremely good but extremely expensive as other pro-solutions).
I can recomend you the Zoom H4.
perfect for a starter, and depending how you record, you dont even have to buy a mic, it even has mount so you can put it on a boom pole.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Hum...

Hum...

Also if you`re recording with a boom (you mostly will), ... and then you have the dynamic microphones

You have to watch out when using dynamic mics (and mic cables) around high power devices and monitors.

If you have a dynamic mic in front of a monitor, it can pick up hum from a CRT yoke or maybe hiss from a LCD backlight power supply. You have a mic near a monitor when you are doing the ADR or looping...

We have a electrovoice dynamic shotgun mic that was made for boom, it sounds very good, but can pick up hum from the 2K lights magnetic field.

To get power hum out of the sound you can use the notch filter in your WAV software to cut 60Hz, 50Hz, or 59.94Hz depending if you are in the USA, Europe, or near an NTSC monitor. If you do not have a notch filter high pass at about 150Hz, there is little in dialog below 150Hz. High pass also helps take out some breath and wind noise.

Putting the mic on a pad on the floor (or table) can take some of the room tone and echo out of the recording and give better bass for recording music, just make sure people do not stomp around where the mic is. This trick is used in PZM microphones.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/make_your_own_pzm_microphone.htm

As the boom was mentioned, people who have not worked much in film need to understand that to get good sound the mic must be closer than three feet from the actors mouth most of the time, so the mic is just out of the shot, like almost on the top edge of the frame. The REDONE has overscan, so you can see the boom mic on the viewfinder just outside the area that will be saved, that helps the sound boom man try to keep the boom out of the frame. Wide screen is easer to mic than 4:3 maybe because there would be less head room over the actors to keep the mic out of.

Directional mics like shotguns have lower output S/N for a given amount of sound, so if you are outdoors in a quiet place you can better S/N using a less directional mic. You use Directional mics to reject sound from the sides and behind, if there is noise around, but it only cuts a little it does not give a clean track. If you have a great deal of noise even digital noise filters are not going to fix it, you will need to have the actors do ADR or looping, they watch the mointor and hear what they said on headphones and repeat their lines while recording in a padded room (to avoid echos), you can then review a recording with video to see if they lip-sync OK or not, if not they need to do it over and over until you get a good reading of the lines and good sync at the same time...

Yes, record in the camera, on a WAV recorder or two, and you need to record in the camcorders (you can use two or three, each one zoomed in on an actors mouth to use for ADR-looping later, not a standard method, but the workflow is easy, just rewind the tape and start the ADR-looping by playing back the camcorder sound into the actors headphones and passing the video to the VCR recording the ADR-looping mic signal from a mic to line amp or mixer, the new audio is recorded on one VCR channel and the old on the other VCR channel (or also into a WAV recorder for higher quality) that way when you look at the stereo WAV on the computer screen you can see the slate clap on the old live audio and sync the new ADR-looping audio automaticly, then drop the live audio gain in the mix to zero.)

 

[Imran Farouk]

woohooo thank you!

woohooo thank you!

Most common scenario I've run across on feature sets is that the sound mixer sends audio to the camera so dailies will already have sound synced up, plus the sound person records primary sound for post to some sort of hard drive-based system and sometimes records a DAT (tape) back-up as well.

I'll try and get hold of a sound mixer,if the one used for features and shorts are the same as the ones used for DJ'ing then I already have one I guess I've also got a Duet(http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/duet.php)audio interface which i was going to plug up into my Macbook Pro to get some of the audio when I heard that a lot of people were doing Syncing instead of straight to the camera.

Imran, I assume you are asking this because you have a project in mind, before you go spending a lot of money on any recorder, it would be better if you told us what camera and conditions are you planing to record.
As a beginner, you`ll be better recording directly into any camera that has an XLR input, and put the on camera auto limiter function, so your sound doesnt clip.

Yes you are correct in that assumption,I have a couple of projects in mind in fact,due to the fact that I live in two different places we are doing a few projects back to back in England and then all the post is to be done in Singapore. (which makes ADR a problem,although that can be done after the Edit I suppose)
The first project has barely any dialogue in it, which I guess makes the sound of the dialogue the more important then anything.It's being done in my boarding house(which is a big old house). The dialogue scenes will most likely take place in one of the rooms which have an average ceiling height as the guy thats decided to write the script decided that It would be difficult to do it in the foyer which has a pretty big ceiling height. The dialogue is between four actors.(As will all the other productions,I'm avoiding any outdoor dialogue for now as I'm sure thats FAR more difficult to get right then indoors,as I'm also trying to learn how to do lighting)
I have a Sony FX-1,although on the projects I think is worthy I will be renting a RED one(as it is quite expensive and I don't want to just shoot anything on it). The Sony doesn't have a XLR port so I had where I bought my Boom mic, which is a Sony ECM-678 Short Shotgun Microphone, (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/361504-REG/Sony_ECM678_ECM_678_Shotgun_Microphone.html)
do a XLR to Mic input jack. I only bought the Sony because I couldn't find an immediate retailer for any of the brands that I was told was good,such as Sennheiser.
I also do have wireless mic's, I've got two, Which I was thinking at one point to avoid issues with cabling and a way to get Two Boom's recording at once to the Sony,hooking up a sender to each of the Boom Mics and using a receiver hooked into the Camera and eventually the other one hooked into the laptop for audio recording.
The system for wireless I'm using is Audio Technica Pro88W/R
(http://www.audio-technica.com.hk/eng/model.php?s_id=13&m_id=202)

Thank you for the recommendation of the Zoom H4,Although the more I look into every aspect of making shorts and features I find it getting more and more expensive

Yes, record in the camera, on a WAV recorder or two, and you need to record in the camcorders (you can use two or three, each one zoomed in on an actors mouth to use for ADR-looping later, not a standard method, but the workflow is easy, just rewind the tape and start the ADR-looping by playing back the camcorder sound into the actors headphones and passing the video to the VCR recording the ADR-looping mic signal from a mic to line amp or mixer, the new audio is recorded on one VCR channel and the old on the other VCR channel (or also into a WAV recorder for higher quality) that way when you look at the stereo WAV on the computer screen you can see the slate clap on the old live audio and sync the new ADR-looping audio automaticly, then drop the live audio gain in the mix to zero.)

I've got sadly no tape camcorders anymore both of the ones I have are HDD cameras(parents old one)although I'm sure both would work fine to some extent correct? This ADR method does sound rather complicated,I currently don't have ANY wave software that I'm aware of,although alot of the audio I was going to run into my Macbook Pro on set was to go to Soundtrack Pro or to Garage Band (Not exactly professional ). Yet I will try and get a hold of a lot of the equipment for ADR.

Although I'm directing the thing and not the sound guy,we don't have anyone that is experienced in sound nor does it look like anyone other then myself is going to go looking into every aspect of making the shorts we have planned work (such as the lighting and the post work, ADR and the production work, Sound).

Thank you all so much for your time and advice Don't think any of my projects will work out the way I want it to without the aid of all you REDusers

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Lighting tricks... Lip Sync...

Lighting tricks... Lip Sync...

I'm also trying to learn how to do lighting...

I've got sadly no tape camcorders anymore both of the ones I have are HDD cameras(parents old one)although I'm sure both would work fine to some extent correct? This ADR method does sound rather complicated,I currently don't have ANY wave software that I'm aware of,although alot of the audio I was going to run into my Macbook Pro on set was to go to Soundtrack Pro or to Garage Band (Not exactly professional ). Yet I will try and get a hold of a lot of the equipment for ADR.

About lighting, indoors it can be hard to get lights behind the actors, you might try a large plastic mirror and bounce the lights off that.

Another trick is to put two lights one on each side of the frame behind the actors about one or two feet so that the shadows go toward the camera, you need a good matte box or at least a piece of cardboard with a rectangle hole cut in it to keep the light out of the camera lens.

Try to have one of the brighter lights above the line of sight and coming from the direction the actor's nose is pointing. For night time have the light a little behind the actor so the nose shadow comes to the camera and for daytime have the light more on the camera's side of the nose line so the nose shadow goes away from the camera. The brightest light would be behind the actor pointing at the camera if you have room to put one back there, otherwise try the two lights behind the actor off the sides of the frame trick.

==

I prefer to use VHS tape for doing the lip sync since some compressed video can have poor lip sync. It is not as complex as it seems, you can do the ADR-looping the night of the shoot by using the camcorder footage, you can do it on the set to get the same room tone in the track, just set up a monitor and put headphones on the actor and have them lip sync what they just did. You can use small CCTV cameras and VHS HI-FI decks if you are indoors (or by inverter outdoors), just let them run all the time recording video and sound, you might need the dialog recordings from the run throughs later in editing if something goes wrong with the track you need.

In my software it is possable to "blow up" a part of the frame to make a set of frames that zooms in on the actors mouths for playback to do the ADR-looping later, but the footage may have one or more actors out of focus so it could be hard to see if the lip sync is right on, with the camcorders being zoomed in and focused on the actors mouth you get a sharper view of the lips, and you do not have to wait for the de-mosaic (de-Bayer) of the REDONE 4K footage to extract the close up frames (making the close up crop frames can be an overnight batch job).

You can ftp uncompressed AVI files from one place to another and have the actors record their ADR using the mic input on their sound board. Then they can email back a WAV, if you have a slate clap or head or tail beep on the "B" channel and their audio on the "A" channel (left and right) thats all you need to re-sync the sound with the in-camera tracks.

http://www.magix.com/us/samplitude-music-studio/

http://www.magix.com/us/samplitude-music-studio/detail/

I don't see a MAC version listed in their system requirements for the current version, but older versions will run under Windows 98SE so you could get a junk computer PIII etc. to run it on. It has many features and the deLuxe version has SMPTE sync, I just use an older version to crop WAV tracks and filter them before moving them into my own "freeish" feature film sound mixing software, and to use it as a SMPTE LTC sync WAV file player in a two computer setup for doing frame based DI using my "freeish" system. One can find older Magix on ebay for maybe $10 or so.

Its best to do the ADR-looping as soon as you can, since you may not be able to get the actors back later if you need to fix something. It can be good to record all the run throughs so you can cut away in editing and have those recordings used as off camera dialog if you get stuck.

 

[Imran Farouk]

Dan, Thank you greatly for all the help so far
Especially the lighting tips

I've just got an extra boom mic today and I am looking into a sound device 422 field mixer to start off Which seems rather ok considering the maximum we are having is four people talking at any one time. Though this won't be till later on in March.

ADR makes more sense now the more I watch shows and shorts and see how clean the audio is, so I guess the only good reason to have good sound equipment is to lessen the amount of ADR that needs to be done.

I was just wondering, your software...What exactly is it?(seems quite interesting )

 

[Dan Hudgins]

no-budget post DI software

no-budget post DI software

Dan, ...
I was just wondering, your software...What exactly is it?

I put a Digital Cinema post production DI (Digital Intermediate) system in the Files Utilities sub-menu of my CAD programs. Some of the other parts of my CAD programs can be used for scrolling titles, doing composites (mostly with rotascope), and various other filmmaking tasks. There is a Macro language that can be used for some file management and graphics tasks as well.

The first part written was the sound mixing for feature film production, it can produce a very profesional quality feature film mix in up to 16 channels, or you can mix more than one language out in one pass, there are 512 tracks that map into the 16 channels, each tack has a level, pull up and noise gate and each channel has a compressor, the compressor lets the program automaticly adjust the mix so that the dialog comes out the loudest if you have its level set higher in the track list, if there is no dialog the effects or the music will dominate depending on the levels you set ahead of time. Minor volume changes are done when the WAV tracks are normalized before you load them into the track list with Magix or some other WAV editor.

In order to view the lip sync, the Animate command was improved to run at sync speed synced to SMPTE LTC time code, in the full setup you use two computers, one running Magix or some other SMPTE LTC WAV player, and the other computer running my DANCAD87 (tm) to playback the low res copies of the high resolution frames from REDONE, film scans or any other source. The resolution of the playback is limited by the computer's speed. Using a solid state harddrive for the playpack frame copies ("proxies") may help you use large and better quality for the playback, but the sync playback frames do not affect the output results which are made in non-real time at full "profesional" quality, uncompressed 16bit 48bpp TIF.

The idea was to make a low cost way to produce a motion picture that would be the full equal in terms of DI quality to major studio feature motion pictures, which I think I have done more or less, in other words no program can produce higher quality that would be of much consequence as far as straight filmmaking and color correction (not color distortion).

The system is frame based for both the images and sound, to insure absolute sync, unlike some video or computer video type systems.

In the Mix track edits are automaticly blopped to prevent clicks.

There are a few things that I still should add and improve here and there, but as far as I know it should be usable, people can help "Beta Test" it for free as a download from my Web Site (under the current EULA).

It is not desigined for editing home movies, it is desigined to make feature films, the processing time per frame for color correction of 2K frames is about 15 seconds +/- and for 4K frames about 60 seconds +/-, most of that is from the OS reading and writing the harddrive, using a very fast RAID array may speed those tasks up, but it may be better to use several computers running on different reels of the film at the same time to get to the final edited and color corrected frame set.

In the Kinema Edit list there are two versions of the Animate command, the Pick command lets you set the start and end frames for each shot, and play each shot with sync sound if you want. The View command lets you view the range of shots you selected with the Link command to see how your edit looks playing back at speed. The program can "window dub" the frame numbers or SMPTE time code while it plays back and plays back the edited parts.

You can use a VGA to NTSC/PAL converter to output the sync playback to video tape to review or to put into another computer to edit with some other program, then enter those edit points into the editlist to match the changes.

You can also make uncompressed AVI at DVD or other resolutions by outputting a set of DVD size (720x480) BMP frames, and a WAV mix, then use the freeware VIRTUALDUB (tm) to turn the edited and color corrected image frames into the AVI. Uncompressed AVI should playback up to about 720x480 on fast computers, for 1280x720 or 1920x1080 size you would probably need to convert the uncompressed AVI into MPEG4 to get smooth playback on a computer.

To input REDONE footage into my system you use (free) REDCINE and change the output name string with "00#6.E" so you get eight digit numbered frame names, like 00000000.TIF, 00000001.TIF, etc. for each shot. You use the trim controls in REDCINE to make the zero frame for each shot the slate board clap frame, and set the end trim to the last frame you might need. You set REDCINE to output 16bit 48bpp TIF frames using REDLOG type curve and DO NOT USE THE INTERNAL COLOR CORRECTION IN REDCINE to avoid higlight clipping or other problems, just use the controls in my DANCAD87.EXE (tm) to color correct the images, leave the REDCINE controls at their mid-point/default netural values. Each R3D shot should be output to the I01 resolution in my program's project folder structure to avoid wasting time re-copying the frames around (which can take months of extra time).

My program DANCINES.EXE (tm) if for automating a movie film scanner to make frames, it can also run movie film printers. The scanned frames are converted into TIF files using the freeware program DCRAW (tm) and used just like the frames from REDCINE would be. My program DANCINEL.EXE (tm) automates the transfer of the edited color corrected frames to motion picture dupe-neg stock or positive print stock in color or black and white. In other words you use a 1600x1200 LCD monitor or a 2048x1536 CRT monitor and a 35mm movie camera to build a DIY film recorder to output your film for projection. I am still working on DANCINEL.EXE (tm), but what is done so far can be downloaded for "Beta Testing". The main issue with the DIY film recorder is the red exposure on color positive stock, the backlight in LCD monitors does not put out much red light so the exposure with a 2E and 25 wratten filter is about 90 seconds at T/1.3 which is a little too slow for making movie prints. You can increase the brightness by taking the back off the monitor and using a fresnel lens, or you can expose black and white stock to make color seperation printing negatives using Kodak 2302 stock since there is enough blue light to get shorter exposure times. Anyway, in time I may have more detailed information on the ways to shorten the exposure times. Rather than use dup-neg stock you can use EI 50 camera film and then you have more than enough light, since color printstock is only about EI 0.2-0.6 in the red layer.

Anyway, my software is a way to make movies at low cost and high quality, the DIY film recoder may be a bit of a weak point but if you have held your 4K output frames and you sell your film the distributor can pay to have the filmout done on a better film recorder from your TIF frames.

If anyone wants to use my software for a project they should stay in contact by e-mail so I know what issues come up, and can guide them through the steps...

 

[Imran Farouk]

so guess that means that I'll have to wait for scarlet to fully understand the system...
is there a mac OS version?
How friendly is the UI?/Whats the learning curve like?
Is the system Pre-FCP or Post FCP?
How far is it from being off beta?



On the topic of audio and others
Audio gear that I buy now, if professional will be usable through the future yes?and therefore if used right will bring up the productions that we have planned?so its best to try and get a hold of industry standard working methods (For sound) and gear as i understand it
Although lighting changes constantly as different set ups can't use a standard set of lights?

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Learning curve...

Learning curve...

so guess that means that I'll have to wait for scarlet to fully understand the system...
is there a mac OS version?
How friendly is the UI?/Whats the learning curve like?
Is the system Pre-FCP or Post FCP?
How far is it from being off beta?

You do not need to wate for Scarlet to learn my system, you can download R3D files from REDRELAY,

http://www.redrelay.net/

Thats what the files are there for, so people looking into the RED cameras can download R3D files and try REDCINE etc to see if they can deal with the workflow issues.

I showed my Brother my system and he said he thought it was easer to use than Avid when he tried it, but I would not claim that...maybe he was joking or being kind but he sounded like me meant it (I am sure he only tried a very old film editing Avid so what they have now may be better), with me telling him what keys to use he was editing some shots together in a few minutes. All you do is highlight the shot you want to trim, hit the space bar, press [P] for the pick command and the set the head and tail frames with the [ and ] keys, press [Q] then press [Esc] to get back to the edit list and select another shot to trim, mark a shot and move it up or down on the list. I desigined it for my own use, in particular to avoid film editing of a thousand or more shots and keep track of thousands of cores of film myself so it was only important to be better enough than film editing to let me get the job done. I do not have thumbnails in the edit list yet since it runs faster in text mode, but there is a line of text at the bottom of the screen that gives you a reminder for what each shot, if you making a movie you should remember what you shot anyway.

FCP is not used, needed or involved unless you want to make a rough cut with it because you want to waste time, or something.

As far as I know it is working, but I make changes and things can get messed up, so I cannot re-test everything on each revision, you can try editing five minutes of files from REDRELAY to see if you can deal with it, it is not graphical, it is a tool to get the job done and get better results than the "pretty" programs, i.e. it does not matter what the program looks like or what the "workprint" looks like, it matters what the finished film looks like, and that is where I am putting my time...

When I get time I may make a video showing how to use it, until then you can e-mail me and I will try to talk you through. You should keep in mind this is an UNCOMPRESSED DI system for the highest quality, not a "quicktime" or MPEGx system, it will take time to process the frames, editing picture MOS is fast once get the proxy frames installed since they are always on the harddrives and are full random access, that is you do not need to load the frames each time you turn the computer on or start the programs. Editing with sync sound requires mixing the audio tracks which is not real time since real numbers are used for high quality, but once you mix for a shot you can change the edit points without having to re-render the audio since the audio is mixed from frame zero of each shot.

On the topic of audio and others
Audio gear that I buy now, if professional will be usable through the future yes?and therefore if used right will bring up the productions that we have planned?so its best to try and get a hold of industry standard working methods (For sound) and gear as i understand it
Although lighting changes constantly as different set ups can't use a standard set of lights?

My system uses WAV 48000 16bit most of the time, you could use 96000 rate but you would not hear much if any improvement.

For other systems if you can record 96000 24bit you can probably use that for any project since it is above the quality what you can hear in a theatre.

Good audio is easer to get now since the equipment is lower cost and much better than 30 years ago. There are no miracles of software that can replace getting a clean recording in the first place, although if you cannot get a clean recording then software can be used to help fix things.

What standard you use and what methods you use depend on if you want to join a Union someday and get jobs in the industry. If you are just making films for yourself, then you only need to please yourself and anyone who might see your works.


If you have four or five lights you can learn to arrange them for different types of setups indoors. Each type of fixture has its uses, even a bare bulb can be useed, I went to a lecture about a lighting cameraman in Hollywood who used like three bare 2000 watt photofloods to light features with, mostly B horror films, and he got the jobs over other DPs because the cost of renting his lighting kit was cheeper, and he could set up faster.

You would be supprised how good a lighting you can get with "hen house lights" aluminum foil for barn doors, and black wrap for snoots, some gels, and foam core for bounce boards can go to get good results. You can put together a lighting kit for less that $500 that is usable with a EI 320 camera at f/4, maybe 2000 watts total.

I like the 2K fresnels but each one draws 20amps, a 500 watt scoop using a mogal base work light boosted to 3400K gives the same light for 1/4 the power, so colortran transformers can stretch your power budget. You can use one or two VARIAC to boost the voltage for your lights to get 3200K or 3400K from normal bulbs if you don't have a Colortran (tm).

You can make a cable adapter to convert the power from dryer and range outlets into sockets for fixtures to get more amps. On Union jobs there would be more rules about fixture safety and how cables are used. I was in Mexico and some people were shooting, they had an open "bite box" (the old style from the 1920's) on the sidewalk without any covers, so what is OK for one project may be off limits on another!

 

[Stephen Strangways]

Sync sound is not used much on better feature films, most of the dialog gets replaced and the sounds are added on multi-tracks.

Better feature films record as much sync dialog as possible, and replace it only when they need to, because it's time consuming and expensive.
If the budget is big enough that costs don't matter, the time still does as it affects release dates, or requires in-demand actors to be booked for sessions.
It's also very rare to find an actor or director who thinks a re-recorded performance in an ADR booth that has to match perfectly is going to be as good as the original performance on-set or location.

Take a look at location sound recording on The Bourne Ultimatum (I count 10 wireless receivers, one mixer, two recorders)
Or Spiderwick Chronicles (lots of equipment to record sync audio in the great outdoors.)
Here's Marie-Antoinette (three recorders, a mixer, several preamps and wireless receivers, three mics on boompoles...)

A lot of foley, sound effects, and atmosphere is done later, but dialog replacement is always something to be avoided.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Sync or not to Sync...

Sync or not to Sync...

Better feature films record as much sync dialog as possible, ...
If the budget is big enough that costs don't matter, the time still does as it affects release dates, or requires in-demand actors to be booked for sessions.

Yes you see lots of microphones being used on a shoot in "behind the scenes" stills, wireless, shotgun, parabolic, but you cannot judge the percent of footage that had ADR-looping done by watching the film since when ADR-looping is done well you cannot detect it by ear or eye.

I do not think you have exact second ratios of ADR-looping to Sync dialog for those films do you, where did you see it published?

Don't better films mostly have bigger budgets and higher standards? Yes in the last 30 years shortcuts have yelded better results, but it is still very a hard to get clean sync sound on location or even in a studio, especially from a boom mic. The small mics that can be warn under the collar can help, some may have noise canceling vents but the best ones are higher priced and might get rub noises.

For someone working with less control doing ADR-looping will yeld a cleaner dialog track and have less room tone, a bad muffled dialog track is one of the faults of low budget and indy filmmaking.

The method I outlined above of using video tape for the ADR-looping can be done on the set with all the noise making lights and other equipment turned off, or done indoors using close micing the day of the shoot. This method can help rid an indy film of awful sync sound, since the thread author did not seem to be in a Union yet or have a big budget I thought knowing there was a way to get sound of the standard of movies of the golden age of hollywood at little cost might be helpfull.

If you look at a film like "Goldfinger (1964)" you can see that much of the dialog if not allmost all of it was replaced, and the same probably goes true for "Ben-Hur (1959)" and "The Ten Commandments (1956)".

You seem to be arguing about the word "Better" so I will apologize for using that word, maybe I should have used "craftsman like" or something... I was just trying to help the thread author get a result I would find better.

In some cases the location sound engineer might not even know how much of his soud gets replaced later. I assume the mix engineer would know the source of the tracks.

By Brother had a friend who is a DP that works on small indy films, and we were invited to come see him work on a project being shot around San Francisco outdoors. On one location there was a busy street with nosy busses passing every few minutes and trafic as well as a cofee shop across the street with people talking and a parking lot at a super market where people slam their car doors every few seconds and make their car beep with the RF lock device. On another location there was a very nosy air conditioner fan device on a building near by that was quite loud. I doubt that anyone could get a clean track with such high levels of noise, yes you can use digital noise filters, EQ, and manually blop all the track between words, but the actor's voice will develop an altered tambre.

I have various noise gates, compressers, EQ, software and such, and they can help clean up any track even ADR-looping tracks need to be noise gated to help reduce the build up of noise when mixing many tracks together, but nothing can give a cleaner track than close micing in a sound proofed room, and you need a clean dialog track since the echo and multi-speaker systems in theatres make dialog tracks less understandable.

When shooting around lights like 2K fresnels the high current generates a magnetic field at 60Hz and the whold fixture turns into a buzzer, turn four of them on and you get biz coming from all directions, add to that street noise, a phone ringing next store, and even shooting on location indoors can become so high noise that you cannot get a clean track from a boom mic. Add to that the room tone, and you try to filter out 240Hz to reduce the room tone and your actors voices change tambre again. We use Colortran (tm) to lift the K value and get more light, and they buzz also. Then you have the issue of mic cables picking up radio/TV stations and other EMI/RFI from florescent lights.

I guess my point was how "to better" his film, and yours is to cut corners and revel in the bad sound indy world, in other words stay in your place?

I am not trying to be abrasive, I just don't see in your post what you suggest he do to get a good track, purchase more thousands of dollars of new equipment that in the end will not solve the problems of low budget location shooting as far as noise goes, vs. my suggestion to do something low cost that experence over 50+ years of filmmaking has shown to work, just ADR-loop as much as you need to...

It is good that you mentioned that current day producers try to use current methods to avoid doing ADR-looping to cut corners etc., he should know that, and he should know exactly what miracles of technology are used to try to get a track that is passable, but mostly it is the ability to stop traffic and turn off nosy air blowers that let mid budget films get better sync audio over no-budget indy films. Money talks. If you can't stop the traffic and use high priced equipment, you can ADR-loop at very low cost with a pair of used VHS Hi-Fi recorders, and maybe a WAV recorder or laptop, a common mic and a good preamp, or maybe a USB microphone (you can tap the audio monitor from the laptop when using a USB microphone).

As to ADR not being as good as sync, well anything done badly shows, anything done well goes unnoticed, at least that is the way it was for "process shots" and for looping...

 

[Stephen Strangways]

Yes, there are obstacles to getting good sync sound on location. There are also obstacles to getting good non-sync sound on location, or weeks and months later in a booth.

My opinion, which has been formed by doing sound on indie shorts and features, and doing sound on EPKs for big budget union shoots watching how they do it, is that it's worth the effort and equipment to get it right the first time, in sync, because you're not saving any time, effort, or money, if you only do it non-sync.
By all means, use non-sync to solve problems, but please, don't make it your first choice. It really is the harder way of doing things, and that is what I'm trying to say.

Saying that other films, whether you call them better, bigger budget, union, or whatever, don't use sync sound much is both incorrect, and misleading to anyone who might try to learn from the "Hollywood" methods.

I am going to respond in detail to some of your points below, not to argue, but to insure this thread has differing points of view covered.

Yes you see lots of microphones being used on a shoot in "behind the scenes" stills, wireless, shotgun, parabolic, but you cannot judge the percent of footage that had ADR-looping done by watching the film since when ADR-looping is done well you cannot detect it by ear or eye.

I must say I've never seen a parabolic mic on anything other than a nature documentary, but they do use plenty of wireless mics, and more than one shotgun or hyper. That doesn't prove how much sync sound was used in the final film, but I think it shows they are putting a lot of effort into recording good sync sound. And they wouldn't do that unless they had a good reason to.

I do not think you have exact second ratios of ADR-looping to Sync dialog for those films do you, where did you see it published?

I don't have those rates, but I assume you don't either. I would be happy to have sound mixers provide us with some estimates, but I'm pretty sure no-one in the industry will have exact second ratios.
From talking to post sound mixers who have done final mixes on films from 1.6 million indies to 25 million studio pics, I have experienced that the majority of dialog used in a finished feature film is usually recorded sync.

Don't better films mostly have bigger budgets and higher standards? Yes in the last 30 years shortcuts have yelded better results, but it is still very a hard to get clean sync sound on location or even in a studio, especially from a boom mic. The small mics that can be warn under the collar can help, some may have noise canceling vents but the best ones are higher priced and might get rub noises.

I don't think it's very hard to get clean sync sound on location with a shotgun mic on a boom. I manage to do it on a fairly regular basis, as do many other boom ops and recordists. I hope they will chime in if you don't believe me!

Small wireless mics, known as lavaliers, can be worn on the chest, on the head under hair, on glasses, and plenty of other ways. Done properly, rub noises are extremely rare.
A lavalier can be attached to someone's skin, and a Moleskin cover is used to prevent clothing from contacting the mic. If you attach it to someone's head, and run the cable under their hair, not only do you not have clothing rub, but they never have their head turned away from the mic.
Lavaliers can be omnidirectional, or have cardioid pickup patterns, but I am not aware of a single lavalier with noise canceling vents like you see on shotgun mics.

For someone working with less control doing ADR-looping will yeld a cleaner dialog track and have less room tone, a bad muffled dialog track is one of the faults of low budget and indy filmmaking.

Yes, a bad muffled dialog track is a common and annoying fault in low budget filmmaking, but it doesn't have to be. All it takes is someone who knows how important sound is, and buys $400-700 of equipment, or rents it, or hires someone who has it.

Another way of getting a clean dialog track is taking twice as long during shooting to ADR right away, or doing it later, and ensuring that every member of the cast has the skills to do it well. Yes, it's an option, but it's the hard way of doing things.

The method I outlined above of using video tape for the ADR-looping can be done on the set with all the noise making lights and other equipment turned off, or done indoors using close micing the day of the shoot. This method can help rid an indy film of awful sync sound, since the thread author did not seem to be in a Union yet or have a big budget I thought knowing there was a way to get sound of the standard of movies of the golden age of hollywood at little cost might be helpfull.

It is my opinion that ADR-looping requires a bigger budget than doing sync sound properly. We'll never agree, but I am glad we both have our differing opinions here for everyone to make their own decisions on.
I believe that getting the sound of the standard of movies of the current age of Hollywood is entirely possible at little cost by doing sync sound properly. A decent short shotgun, a boompole, and appropriate wind protection gets you extremely close to it. Knowledge and practice takes you even further.

If you look at a film like "Goldfinger (1964)" you can see that much of the dialog if not allmost all of it was replaced, and the same probably goes true for "Ben-Hur (1959)" and "The Ten Commandments (1956)".

Flash forward 45-53 years, and things can change a great deal.

In some cases the location sound engineer might not even know how much of his soud gets replaced later. I assume the mix engineer would know the source of the tracks.

I was lucky enough to sit in with the mix engineer of a 25 million dollar feature for a major studio, in one of the most well-known post houses around. He did know the source of his tracks, and I was able to keep one of the sheets he used to track it. There was a whole lot of foley recorded at the facility, but the dialog for all the scenes I sat in on had been recorded sync on the set.

By Brother had a friend who is a DP that works on small indy films, and we were invited to come see him work on a project being shot around San Francisco outdoors. On one location there was a busy street with nosy busses passing every few minutes and trafic as well as a cofee shop across the street with people talking and a parking lot at a super market where people slam their car doors every few seconds and make their car beep with the RF lock device. On another location there was a very nosy air conditioner fan device on a building near by that was quite loud. I doubt that anyone could get a clean track with such high levels of noise, yes you can use digital noise filters, EQ, and manually blop all the track between words, but the actor's voice will develop an altered tambre.

There certainly are added difficulties of recording in those environments, but you might be surprised what can actually be recorded. I hope you get the chance to listen to what a good location sound person or team can do, so you can hear it for yourself. Did you get a chance to speak to the person doing sound on your brother's friend's project, and listen to his or her work?

I think dialog tracks have to be pretty clean, but they don't need to be 100% perfectly clean. Good research for anyone interested is to get a film that's been mixed in 5.1 to place dialog in the center speaker, and music and effects in the left and right speakers, as is common. Switch off everything but that center speaker and, although it's been mixed and things could even have been added, it'll give you a good idea of what a dialog track should sound like.

 

[Stephen Strangways]

I have various noise gates, compressers, EQ, software and such, and they can help clean up any track even ADR-looping tracks need to be noise gated to help reduce the build up of noise when mixing many tracks together, but nothing can give a cleaner track than close micing in a sound proofed room, and you need a clean dialog track since the echo and multi-speaker systems in theatres make dialog tracks less understandable.

You're right, all the fancy filters in the world are no substitute for close micing. The thing is, that can be done, and it is done, on films from no budget indies to blockbusters, on location or soundstage. (I would also like to note - a decent mic up close is better than a fantastic mic faraway.)

Most multi-speaker mixing for home or theaters places the dialog in a front-and-center speaker to help make it understandable. IMAX uses a front-high “The Voice of God” speaker, often for the narrator. The listening test I suggested above will let people discover for themselves just how clean that track is in their favorite films.

When shooting around lights like 2K fresnels the high current generates a magnetic field at 60Hz and the whold fixture turns into a buzzer, turn four of them on and you get biz coming from all directions, add to that street noise, a phone ringing next store, and even shooting on location indoors can become so high noise that you cannot get a clean track from a boom mic. Add to that the room tone, and you try to filter out 240Hz to reduce the room tone and your actors voices change tambre again. We use Colortran (tm) to lift the K value and get more light, and they buzz also. Then you have the issue of mic cables picking up radio/TV stations and other EMI/RFI from florescent lights.

If your 2K fresnels are turning into buzzers, they might have some sort of problem. I've never worked with a tungsten or HMI fresnel from a widely accepted manufacturer (i.e. not a cheap knock-off) that buzzed enough to be audible or recorded. I don't have experience with the Colortran lights you refer to, but understand them to be intended for theatrical use.

When you say "filter out 240Hz to reduce the room tone" are you referring to a 60Hz AC buzz? My use and understanding of the term room tone is closer to this.

Again, I think something is going seriously wrong with your cables if you're getting interference of any sort on balanced, shielded XLR cables.

I guess my point was how "to better" his film, and yours is to cut corners and revel in the bad sound indy world, in other words stay in your place?

My point is absolutely trying to help everyone here better their film! It's just that my preferred techniques and equipment differ from yours.
I'm suggesting using good mics and technique to record good, clean sync sound. I've got experience doing it, and can't imagine it being more expensive or harder or requiring more time or expertise than having two or three extra camcorders on set zoomed in on an actor's mouth to use for ADR-looping later.

I think that recording the best sync sound possible, and doing ADR if you have to, is not cutting corners. I think that not even trying to get good sync sound in the first place is. I don't think that was what you were suggesting, but I worried the abundance of information you gave on that one option might make it seem that way to some people reading this forum.

If I take exception to anything you said, it would be "Sync sound is not used much" as you don't have anything to back that opinion up, and quite frankly, I think you are wrong. Differing opinions are great. Incorrect information presented as fact, and taken as such, can be dangerous. Posting those pictures was an attempt to show another side of the views that I think are nearing that danger zone.

I am not trying to be abrasive, I just don't see in your post what you suggest he do to get a good track, purchase more thousands of dollars of new equipment that in the end will not solve the problems of low budget location shooting as far as noise goes, vs. my suggestion to do something low cost that experence over 50+ years of filmmaking has shown to work, just ADR-loop as much as you need to...

Neither of us are trying to be abrasive, we are trying to inform. That can only be a good thing, and I hope everyone reading this thread agrees.

My suggestion for a low-cost solution to location budget noise concerns is get a decent shotgun mic like a Rode NTG-1, a good boom pole, and wind protection like a Rode blimp. Add some cables and you're going to come in under $1000 easily. Get someone on set who knows or can learn how to properly use that mic, and record sync sound into the camera that's good enough to carry you through post without a whole lot of filtering or fixing needed.

If this comes down to pointing out the usefulness of a method based on what has been used and has been shown to work, it is my opinion that while you are probably quite right about ADR being extensively used in films 50 years ago, I don't believe that is currently the case.
I think that interference tube "shotgun" microphone have only been around since the 1970's, and current designs and usage have evolved significantly since then.

While it's quite possible the electrovoice dynamic shotgun mic you have picks up a 60Hz hum, modern condenser shotguns costing as little as $250 are virtually immune to it, and that seems to be one of the major problems you have and suggest ADR to solve.

It is good that you mentioned that current day producers try to use current methods to avoid doing ADR-looping to cut corners etc., he should know that, and he should know exactly what miracles of technology are used to try to get a track that is passable, but mostly it is the ability to stop traffic and turn off nosy air blowers that let mid budget films get better sync audio over no-budget indy films. Money talks. If you can't stop the traffic and use high priced equipment, you can ADR-loop at very low cost with a pair of used VHS Hi-Fi recorders, and maybe a WAV recorder or laptop, a common mic and a good preamp, or maybe a USB microphone (you can tap the audio monitor from the laptop when using a USB microphone).

While traffic is impossible to stop without money and permits, or breaking the law, I have found that a polite request stops most other noise, and that when words are not enough, muffins work just as well as, if not better than, money.

Failing that, you can go a long way with the right techniques (free) and equipment costing $500 to $1000. Considering a decent camera costs more than that, and we are in fact on a forum for a camera costing $17,500 plus, I don't think that's too high priced.

As to ADR not being as good as sync, well anything done badly shows, anything done well goes unnoticed, at least that is the way it was for "process shots" and for looping...

ADR and sync sound can each sound good or bad. Sync is bad if it's poorly recorded and overly noisy. ADR is bad if it's out of sync or poorly acted.
ADR is also bad if it's poorly recorded and overly noisy, so you at least need decent equipment. It's the location of recording that is the variable factor.

If the problems of recording sync in a particular location are easier to overcome than recording ADR, then shoot sync.

If the problems of recording ADR are easier to overcome than recording sync in a particular location, then ADR.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Audio...

Audio...

I think you have done a good job of giving the thread author an overview of some of the issues involved with recording sync sound.

About the 240Hz cut for room tone, when actors speak inside a room the room is a resonant chamber and you get a sort of short echo after each word, the size of the room and the furniture and carpets tend to filter out the high frequencies of speech, so a boom mike or other mike can get a muffled resonance that seems to end up with some volume around 240Hz, since speech for people who do not have deep voices is mostly above 240Hz using a 240Hz high pass or 240Hz notch filter can help cut the muffling of the dialog. Room tone can also come from outside noises resonating in the room's space, the rooms size and contents acting as a bandpass filter to the ambeient sound.

If you are shooting in a bathroom or someplace without furniture the room resonance could have room tone and echos in the speech frequencies, and so might be harder to filter out without changing the tambre of the actors voices too much.

Sorry I use the word "Better", when I think of filmmaking I do not limit my thoughts of which films stand as examples to recent films, and what may have made those films seem good is part of their technique, to make films on par with them, not that I should ever get a chance to do that, one would use the same technique, just as a digital photo may be art but it is not the "Mona Lisa" to make something like the "Mona Lisa" you need to go to the art store and purchase paint.

As for the problems with mic cables going around high current power lines and such picking up hum, my solution would be to locate the mic preamp within a shot distance (about 6 to 12 inches) from the microphone and use line level or higher for the longer runs. That is why old condenser mics had a tube in them, you cannot run the low signals from some mics very far even with balanced lines. I have been working with 35mm movie cameras, and the sync motor is not something you want near your dynamic mic. As for the lights making noise, well they do, and they always did. You cannot filter out the buzz from the lights (since it is broad band), and I can hear it from maybe 8 feet away. The Colortran (tm) is a line voltage bosting transformer to raise the K value of the lights, something useful with Daylight balance Digital Cinema cameras, but it is in a steel box that acts as a diaphragm, so the box buzzes also, with 12 gauge extention cords you can put them in another room, but the lights buzz more when boosted so that does not solve the problem. If you say don't boost the lights, well there is only so much power in a house circuit so then I need to rent a generator truck to make up for the extra amps needed, then I get more fixtures and shadows so does that get me anywhere, anyway, each shoot has its budget, how much the budget is for the original author is I am not sure, I was just suggesting some things that he might not know about that have proved useful for working within limits. He asked both about lighting and sound, and the issue of lights making sounds is something he may have to deal with.

Most of my focus for Audio mixing has been for making Optical Analog motion picture tracks, so getting clean dialog is maybe a little more important since the playback of Optical tracks and the low silver levels in todays print stocks are two knocks agaiinst. The conversion to cyan dye track is being promoted because there is very little silver in some print stocks now, and the S/N ratio is going down (Dolby S/N boosters have been used in to combat this issue so far but there is too little silver now for that to work much/any longer), unfortunately for foreign release not all theaters have converted to RED LED optical readers, so if you do not have silver or sulfide tracks you may not get any sound playback.

With a Mono Optical track in a theatre you can get the sound coming out of 8 or more speakers that are different distances from the viewer, and if you sit in the center but more back from the screen, you get a delay error from the front speaker to the rear speakers. Again my views are colored by the fact that I do not see low budget films or anything I might ever make getting into a multi-plex, just maybe showing in some "art house" with overrun small speakers screwed to the walls every so offten giving many delays of the same audio to blur the sound. Some of these art houses are in long narrow halls that are four times as deep as wide, very much different from the short and wide multi-plex auditorium.

I think one can notice most of the ADR-looping in films by the residual proximity effects and other artifacts of the mic used during the ADR-looping in both TV shows and Movies. I have to point out to my Brother all the time that shots in films he likes used ARC lights outdoors and that the shots were looped, it is easy to think you can go outdoors with your Digital Cinema camera and a wireless mic and capture the mood of some shot in a great film you remember, but it might not look or feel like those films without the ARC lights and looping.

I did not see the film I mentioned by Brother's friend working on, I am not aware of it showing where I could have seen it, so I do not know exactly how much background sound could be made out.

 

[DRappazzo]

Just wanted to say this is a fantastic thread, very informative. Thanks to everyone who takes the time to share their knowledge.

 

[Imran Farouk]

Thank you guys so much for all the information
I do see the two sides of the arguement and I do think it would be a lot easier on everyone to do sync audio rather then ADR, although I don't understand how I could buy all the equipment required to do good sync audio for $400-$1000, I understand that as a rentable price but to buy it, I don't see any equipment for that much.
Currently I just bought a Sony Mic + Boom Pole + extra cable and that came near S$1000, Singapore Dollars, which i guess is $500 American, yet that neglects the mixer, the recorder.
I was looking at a shure location Mixer,which i thankfully declined buying, but looked then at Sound Devices which appears to have a better set of recorders and mixers. The mixer however was priced well into the 1000's so I cant imagine what the recorder would be.
I do understand you can use the digital microphone recorders that people seem to bring up once and a while, the small miniture ones that are tended to be used for interviews. Yet I would prefer not to use this method altogether as it just seems a bit difficult not knowing whats being recordered in them and if its good enough or not.
(I guess they'd have headphone inputs but I'll have people that aren't exactly close to being profesional let alone close to understanding a lot of what this thread is on about wearing the headphones and therefore also not knowing what sounds good)
In turn this means that I would myself need to be mixing it whilst having a mate co-direct, this all causes a huge problem,the project we have in mind is a horror,I don't quite understand this talk about 'unions' as I've seen it on a few threads, however, My final aim is to get as much equipment as possible to start doing serious indies,if what we produce is good enough I'll go ahead and invest into making a production company and a studio to go with it.
So far I've understood anything and thank you all again,
Dan, I'm going to try and get a hold of my windows laptop again and try to download your program (it appeared to have under system requirements, DOS, so figured that was Windows)
Thanks again