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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

New Zeiss Compact Primes preview...

David, once I know as much as you do I will probably stop asking so many questions... well that is likely not true. One of the main reasons to ask all this stuff is to learn about how it all works, things you already know.

I have shot quite a bit, certainly nowhere as much as you, but I've never reached for a calculator. IMO everything of value in this craft is measurable by intangibles anyway. Whether you rationalize some, or a lot of it, in the end it is still all based on the feelings evoked by the sum of the parts. I am very aware of this.

Still, I realize I must be annoying to some, perhaps not you, I can only hope. But even if that were the case, I can't change who I am. I can only hope that my incessant questioning isn't misconstrued into something else, hopefully at least not something negative. All it is is a relentless hunger for knowledge.

Granted, some of it might not seem useful enough for the time I spend trying to figure it out. But that is only measurable taking into consideration where I am coming from and where I am ultimately headed, universe willing. Just know that there is much more gathered than simple math.

On a more specific note, my upcoming project may or may not have enough budget -among other things- for replicating interiors where pivotal scenes take place. This has me concerned with making sure I will cover my wide end. Finally, we will be shooting while all this new gear is brand spanking new still, and in high demand. So I am talking with people who will have it available, making sure I will have access to everything we will need without having to break the bank.

I am just trying to be as prepared as possible... I would not want my first feature to fail in part due to unpreparedness. I wouldn't forgive myself, now should investors. But luckily that is not going to happen (other than the healthy amount of Murphy's).

While my posts may be simple hammering questions to people of a certain mastery, little questions slowly chiseling away at one boulder out of a whole mountain of pertinent information... I am also picking up a lot of other valuable information.

Thanks to these and many other threads, and generous people like you, I am constantly gaining knowledge. Though there is also conversations, books and -above all- experience.

Anyhow... thanks for your patience, and sorry if I test it a little too often.

If you are shooting in Super-35, you're probably going to get a prime lens set that starts at an 18mm and maybe goes to 100mm. So if you are shooting in FF35, you're probably going to get a prime lens set that starts at a 27mm and goes to a 150mm.

Thanks! So it seems that the Zeiss set already covers the wide end quite well for FF35 with the 21mm being a T2.1, but I wonder if they will make the 100mm soon? And when we may see something in the 150mm range...

Personally I think we will end up mostly shooting Misterium-X 5k for 2.4, but you never know, a lot can change from here to winter.
 
leica really needs someone like Les Zellan to swoop in and shake up the culture a but.
They did have an american CEO come in for a while but it ended disastrously, he was a big box store CEO and didn't get the Leica draw. If leics went down the same path that Zeiss has and started releasing lenses for 3rd party DSLs they'd be back on top in no time. I was talking M lenses BTW, although I do have a Panasonic LX3 that takes extremely Leica like photos with it's Japanese Summicron lens.
 
It doesn't matter how great their lenses are if Leica is continuously sinking into further and further debt. How's super special 50th editions cameras can they keep making to keep things afloat while they struggle to make a marginally competitive digital camera.

While their older lenses rocked, their newer lenses have gotten less and less interesting.

Ariana,

you are totally misinformed about the newest Leica lenses.

If you cannot get them and try it out, then you could read and learn more about them here:

TAO of LEICA>>>
 
All I see, except of the super marketing bla bla, is the typical ZF problems that I see in my lenses... There is no way to put 30K euros for a lens like that... I prefer the Elites or the Lomos or the RRP's... to put on the table numbers like that when I can with 7K euros to have either the P+S conversion or the dulcos with less... there is no point to pay the extra 25K for just the mechanics and have the same quality as the stills...

If they use the same design in the 50mm F1.4 and the 85mm F1.4, then this are the worst lenses I have ever used... especially the 50mm F1.4 is totally trash... for me is weird that they don't use the two macro 50mm F2 and the 100mm F2 which they are a real benchmark!

If they want me (and others) they have to sell below 12K euro's... yes they are Zeiss, but they aren't alone... and we can measure and understand better...

There is no market for products that carrying heavy names like ARRI or ZEISS when the product doesn't perform as the competition does... No way to pay the premium just to see the logo ARRI/Zeiss... they are not selling in the fashion market, we are professionals... we are not stupid.

If RRP's do perform, then I'm with Jim...
 
Ariana,

you are totally misinformed about the newest Leica lenses.

If you cannot get them and try it out, then you could read and learn more about them here:

TAO of LEICA>>>


I'm a leica shooter from the late 70s and in addition to all my father's leicas from the 40s-90s, I have a ton of leica gear all the way up to the recent lenses. I have Puts' book and bought lenses he's recommended but only to realize his reviews are biased and narrowly focused.

Frankly, the problem with the more recent lenses is that they cater to tweaks like Erwin Puts and optimize the lenses for technical analysis.
Any lens that Puts praises highly is usually the lens that produces the ugliest pictures.
 
Ouch... I didn't see that. Thanks for pointing it out Evangelos. But could these be pictures from a set in development?

How do you correct for CA? Is it something you can do with coatings or do you need to change the lens elements, placement, serious stuff...?

I guess most if not all would take 4.5k 2:1 or 5k 2.4 with no CA over 6k 16:9.
 
Ouch... I didn't see that. Thanks for pointing it out Evangelos. But could these be pictures from a set in development?

How do you correct for CA? Is it something you can do with coatings or do you need to change the lens elements, placement, serious stuff...?

I guess most if not all would take 4.5k 2:1 or 5k 2.4 with no CA over 6k 16:9.

Unfortunately only serious staff...

The 50mm 1.5 is the worst lens ever... only past F2.8 1/2 is workable with acceptable level of CA... the 25 the same the 85 the same...

Why the didn't use the macros? cheap thinking...

so for me they are a no go...
 
That's no worse than I've seen from S4s and at least it's lateral CA (blue/yellow) which is quite easily corrected in post. The S4s have crazy purple fringing on chrome and it's impossible to process out.

example...
S4ca.jpg
 
I'm a leica shooter from the late 70s and in addition to all my father's leicas from the 40s-90s, I have a ton of leica gear all the way up to the recent lenses. I have Puts' book and bought lenses he's recommended but only to realize his reviews are biased and narrowly focused.

Frankly, the problem with the more recent lenses is that they cater to tweaks like Erwin Puts and optimize the lenses for technical analysis.
Any lens that Puts praises highly is usually the lens that produces the ugliest pictures.

Ariana,

would be nice that you show and share with us here your test(s) or any of those "ugly" Leica pictures that you've talking about.

Here below there are a couple of pictures and short clips shot with several Leica-R and Leica-M lenses on RED1.

Leica_NoctiluxF095_01.jpg

Leica Noctilux - M 50mm f/0.95 ASPH on RED1

Download here "quick & dirty" test footage shot with Leica Noctilux - M 50mm f/0.95 ASPH on RED1all time wide open @ f/0.95>>>

IMS_Leica24mmf2-8_02.jpg

Belvedere Schloss (Palace) in Vienna shot with Leica-R 24mm f/2.8 on RED1.

Download 2K "quick and dirty" test example shot with Leica-R 24mm f/2.8 on RED1 here>>>>

IMS_RED_LeicaSummicron-M90mm_01.jpg

Leica Summicron-M 90mm f/2 on RED1

IMS_RED_LeicaSummicron-M90mm_02.jpg

Leica Summicron-M 90mm f/2 on RED1

Download here "quick & dirty" test example shot with Leica Summicron-M 90mm f/2 on RED1>>>
 
That's no worse than I've seen from S4s and at least it's lateral CA (blue/yellow) which is quite easily corrected in post. The S4s have crazy purple fringing on chrome and it's impossible to process out.

example...
S4ca.jpg

That's why I prefer the Leica R lenses which they have character and no CA anywhere... ohh and they cost half of what the compacts do...

Sorry I can't buy the concept that a still lens set cost is 5K euros and the same in a CineStyle housing is X6... I could pay x2, but this is outrageous...

And its not only Letaral CA... is heavy flare, very bad bokeh (Vaseline look), crazy fringing that makes you to shoot at F4 most of the time... so please I can't understand the hype...
 
I try to be as impartial as possible when reviewing these lenses, that being said I have always maintained that the good Nikon MF glass is every bit as good if not better than the ZFs. The ZF barrels are a little nicer for cinema (The CPs way better) but optically the ZFs are only on par with other top line still glass, hell, I'd take the Nikon 85mm 1.4 over the ZF any day and especially the new Nano coat f2.8 zooms (14-24 & 24-70) they even take the Optimos to school!
 
But if you are working on an big project you can't justify risking money on wonderful glass with short focus throws.

I am very exited for the Noctilux clip to finish downloading, Belvedere Schloss Palace looks a million times better than it did when shot with the super sharp Canon 10mm-??mm zoom. Leica lenses do look gorgeous.

Evin, I like the idea of being able to get a great deal and know that I need to do a little correction here and there. Bu wouldn't you agree that when RPPs promise to have zero CA and all the other numbers, that it will be hard not to go with them?

Unless of course come NAB I don't see a single posts talking about character, feeling, and other higher class of adjectives...

Either way, Evangelos, you might agree that a "better" image in 5 takes is not the same as a "great" image in 2.
 
Sajin is it the same mount for the Leica "M" & "R" lenses?

No there are two different mounts, one for Leica-M (register 27.80mm) and another for Leica-R (register 47.00mm) lenses.

Register = distance flange to film or sensor plane>>>

Have a look at the pictures below:

Leica_IMSmounts_01.JPG

Leica-M mount on the left and Leica-R mount on the right side of the picture.

Leica_IMSmounts_02.JPG

Leica-M mount on the left and Leica-R mount on the right side of the picture.
 
I had seen that 0.95 Leica a long time ago.

Why can't someone grab all the best lenses and put them in Cine barrels?

Has Leica ever put out cine lenses?

Can't Zeiss copy their FF35 stuff?

What gives?
 
Thanx Sanjin... What's the highest resolution you can get from each, what format are they? If you had to choose "M" or "R" which would you choose or is there any difference besides the mount? I love Leica lenses, they have such character....
 
I'm not too much into "RED" and my last post disappeared, so here's a second try to correct some statements made here and to open your eyes to a different perspective:

The Zeiss ZF-lenses are not the most advanced designs Zeiss is known for, because they were designed to sell at lower prices and to be manufactured by Cosina (no complex CNC-grinded asphericals...). I'm not sure how well they will perform but optical performances depends also on tolerances and manufacturing. As far as I know, they share lens design, but they manufacture the lens-elements themselves. The Apo/Asph designs by Leica set the standard quality-wise in 35mm-photography, over the past 2 decades they developed new technologies and designs and they're all manufactured in Solms by Leica.
Japanese lenses are not longer sold under the Leica-brand (Sanjin's 24mm R was a Minolta-design and one of the weakest performers in the R-System) and the Varios of the last decade were also Leica-designs and manufactured by Leica (70-180, 2,8/35-70, 28-90, 21-35). Leica also invests more money into the development of their S-System than any MF-manufacturer before - which has nothing to do with the quesitonable strategy to offer Leica-branded Panasonic-cameras...

"Made in Germany" (just like "Swiss Made" for example) is not about the country itself, it's about a certain philosophy in design and manufacturing which propably later led into a certain mentality.
But basically it's a well-developed infrastructure, a long-history of engineering and very strict environmental & social principles/laws and a special educational system (below academic grades you'll have to learn a certain "practical" and specialized job usually in the company for over 3 years).
It may seem inflexible and expensive, but it simply "promotes" long-sighted thinking. You cut costs on ergonomic working conditions -> you'll loose a well-trained (you invested into his education in your company) worker because of backpain paid by insurance you've paid for. You cannot use workers for simple work-tasks instead you're investing into extensive machines/automation...

Some "German" companies became multinational cooperations (shareholder-value driven) and used their good name to sell "not-so-German"-quality (mostly made in Eastern Europe or Asia) but back on-topic (lenses) to companies like Carl Zeiss, Leica or Arri which are more typical "German":

The Carl Zeiss Foundation owns 100% of the Carl Zeiss AG and Schott AG. It's huge and invests several hundred million Euros into new technologies every year. It's the world-market-leader for many optical devices, not just cine-lenses but also lithographic equipment, they just invested a half billion $ into a new facility in Oberkochen.
The small town Oberkochen is basically Zeiss with several thousand employees, highly-trained with experience over many decades and also contains cine-lens manufacturing in the most advanced facility for lenses worldwide.
Carl Zeiss was once focused on Jena, a town in East Germany. But the Russians destroyed the remained infrastructure, took machines and invested barely anything over the last fourty years after WW2 - in the last two decades, the government and also Zeiss tried to reestablish Jena and the other parts of East Germany, but it still isn't on par with the western side. So be careful about Russian lenses, I've experienced their thinking about investing, technology and quality, working conditions myself...
It's also the machines, tools, measurement and mechanical engineering overall that's coming from Germany.
The Master Primes are a good example for "Made in Germany" / "German Engineering" and they set the standard for photographic lenses, their manufacturing, technology and optical quality is second to none.

I don't know if this is also true to the new compact series, but Carl Zeiss is more than just a brand name, making good cine-lenses is a very demanding task only very few companies in the world are capable of and it's not a coincidence that besides the two "legends" Zeiss and Leica, many smaller optical companies are coming from the same country. We also know very little about the "Rebel"-primes by IBE, it's just a small company from Germany only known for industrial lenses till know (and not Schott or Schneider) but it would simply make very little sense to trick customers with underperforming stuff "made in Germany", there are other places in this world to do that....

In the end, you'll have to find out for yourself, but manufacturing quality, especially lenses is not as easy as todays business-people try to sell it...
Be careful about all the new brands trying to sell you "innovative", "ground-breaking", "revolutionary" lens-sets for "just" a few ten thousand dollars...
 
Cheers Georg,
thanks for your well constructed summary of German lens manufacturers...very much appreciated.

D
 
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