New to the field of RED and crippled with indecision

[James Bendkowski]

Hi guys, my apologies if this thread is initially seen as already existing but from my many searches of the forum and the internet in general there always seems to be a different answer to the question which doesn't exactly help me make a decision

I've been DPing for a while now with an ancient Sony FS100 (It was all that I could afford at the time) and most of my work is music video based (although short film work is now growing for me). I have always looked at the RED cameras with a kiddyish glee as if it a sweet shop window due to them heavily being unobtainably out of my price bracket.

However, I've recently seen how clients are almost expecting 4K as standard (even though they don't actually know what they're requesting considering they'll consume it in 1080) and feel I need to make the leap.

The sensible thing (from what i've gathered) would be to go the Sony FS7 route as all of my lenses will fit the E-Mount and i'm used to the Sony layout.

The problem is that i've now stumbled upon the Raven, and that kiddyish excitement has taken ahold of me again. I know that asking advice on this forum might seem a bit bias as you're all RED fans, but you're also the best informed on the subject of this bewildering creature; of which i've seen a severe lack of information elsewhere. I've seen the sample footage and experienced feelings in my trousers I wouldn't expect from a camera.

My real question is; as a DP on a very tight budget, pretty much limited to not a penny over 10k (in GBP), is the Raven a viable option or should I go with the cheaper FS7 option? I just need some form of steering by someone otherwise i'm never going to be completely happy or feel i'm qualified to make the choice.

I always shoot with a shotgun mic attached (for either scratch or just another form of audio) so would require the 3.5mm to XLR adapter if I were to go RED and I also love the concept of slow motion; which both cameras appear to pull off wonderfully. I essentially run as a one man band on some no-budget shoots where I will capture audio via the camera and also use AF when steadicamming due to the lack of a remote focus pulling system.

I am, of course, waffling on...which I hope (in a way) will display my level of indecision between these two

Please remember that i've never experienced the RED world before so am likely to be rather slow on certain terminologies (even though i've been silently watching on here from the shadows for a while)

So without further ado; "Help me Obi-Wan-REDuser, you're my only hope"

 

[Mike P.]

There is no (usable) auto-focus on RED, and Raven will cost substantially more than an FS7 (especially given that the FS7's can be purchased used at a decent discount, media costs, and storage costs.)

Have you considered keeping the FS100 and getting an offboard 4k recorder? It'd be a hell of a lot cheaper... Or wait, is it only the FS700 and newer that have 4k output? Also, what about A7sII or A7rII?

 

[Matthew Quinn]

hey james if you ever want some advice feel free to pm or email me, quinn@coderedpicturecompany.com

I work on "one man band" jobs and bigger productions all with red cameras, i have different accessories i use depending on the situation

 

[Scot Yount]

There is no auto-focus on RED, and Raven will cost substantially more (especially given that the FS7's can be purchased used at a decent discount.)

Have you considered keeping the FS100 and getting an offboard 4k recorder? It'd be a hell of a lot cheaper.

Not sure what you mean. With my EF mount on, I can control focus when using Canon electronic lenses. And, I have seen where people used a REDMOTE to rack focus with a Canon lens.

 

[James Bendkowski]

Unfortunately it's only the FS700 (the 100's bigger brother) that works with and off board 4k recorder.

My main reason for change is that i'm also starting to see the 'videoish' footage that people describe Sony to have...I have no clue why, it just seem to be something I'm noticing now

I though there as a module that allowed autofocus on the canon mounts? It's not a crucial part of it all but it's just quite useful (although personally I hate relying on autofocus)

I agree on the FS7's price point, although for some reason the image out of the FS7 hasn't 'wowed' me yet. I don't know whether this is down to the fact that the Raven is sitting in the back of my mind. I find that Sony's skin tones aren't wonderful and I know that can all be corrected in post but I really want an image the director will be happy with on-set (before grading)

Thanks Matthew! I might follow you up on that as I am somewhat lost in this all

 

[Nick Morrison]

Unfortunately it's only the FS700 (the 100's bigger brother) that works with and off board 4k recorder.

My main reason for change is that i'm also starting to see the 'videoish' footage that people describe Sony to have...I have no clue why, it just seem to be something I'm noticing now

I though there as a module that allowed autofocus on the canon mounts? It's not a crucial part of it all but it's just quite useful (although personally I hate relying on autofocus)

I agree on the FS7's price point, although for some reason the image out of the FS7 hasn't 'wowed' me yet. I don't know whether this is down to the fact that the Raven is sitting in the back of my mind. I find that Sony's skin tones aren't wonderful and I know that can all be corrected in post but I really want an image the director will be happy with on-set (before grading)

Thanks Matthew! I might follow you up on that as I am somewhat lost in this all

You can autofocus on RED cameras. Just use fool control.

 

[Kenneth C Merrill]

The Raven is probably the best option in its price-bracket, but you're really looking at $13K to get a shootable kit, and that's just with one of the packages, an extra mag, and batteries. The FS7 may be a little cheaper (more like $10K), and you'll probably be used to the Sony color, though it's not my favorite at all.

Ursa Mini?

 

[James Bendkowski]

I tend to stray away from anything BlackMagic as they've always got weird quirks to them; plus I don't particularly like the styling of the mini for gimbal use (the screen placement)

My view with the Raven would be to go for the Base I/O package to use V-locks and get hold of an extra 120gb (as I tend to shoot quite short footage and don't need ridiculous amounts of media). The FS7 is a good option but the Sony colour really isn't a favourite of mine either; my preference would be to move away from the Sony field and I don't have any interest in the C300

 

[Simeon T Geyer]

Hey James,
I mainly worked as a 1.AC for the past 4 years and I'm doing more and more DP work after I worked on some small projects as a DP.
During the last year I also did some VERY basic DIT work. Therefore I had the "what camera to use" discussion almost twice a month at least.
I could write you an PM but since I guess there are quite a few guys out ther having this descision making issue I'll try to sum it up here but still keep it short.

The Raven is an exellent camera no matter what everyone is complaining about (not haveing interchangeable mounts or OLPFs). Especially after we have seen the first footage (postet by Jarred earlier hier on RU) shot on the final production model, there are no more questions about image quality, slowmotion, etc. It is often called an "entry level RED" but keep in mind we are talking about a company which's cameras is constantly used in high end content, including feature films and commercials. Within only 8 years (release of the RED ONE in 2007) they moved from their "underdog" status up into the ranks of the top players next to ARRI, that alone proves that they know what they are doing. I mentioned this because I've been assigned to productions, where the client was explicitly asking for a RED, even thought they weren't involved in motion pictures at all. This often is due to the fact that it has become a known brand and furthermore a symbol of high quality and exellent pictures. "Shot on RED"

Coming to your question what camera to take: It is not easy, as there is no perfect camera! I'm not goign to list all the Pro's and Con's for both cameras here unless anyone wants me to. If so let me know. First of all you should know that you NEVER just buy a RED package and you start shooting. Normally yo get a package and then figure out what bits and pieces you want/need to complete your setup. Especially if you switch plattforms you won't get away with spending £10K in total. At least you want to get some extra media, some v-lock batteries, a top plate, maybe lemo adapters to relocate the monitor, etc. In your case you'd need to get some EF-Mount lenses since I don't know any adapter to get Sony lenses on a EF mount. It's ore likely to spend around £15K - £20K depending on what you can take from your old setup and transfer it and what you'd have to buy new.

Yet if you don't like the look the FS7 is going to provide you with I don't see why you should go for it. I'd rather invest a bit later or get my kit together piece by piece then investing in a setup that I'm not happy with. You don't want to invest a lot of money to come to the point where you have to reinvest only becasue you're (and maybe your clients) are not happy with the look or feel. Especially since clients are sometimes asking for RED cameras in specific and or having a RED would land you one or anotehr gig more, simply casue of the kit you can provide. I know at the end of the day it doesn't come down to the kit used on a project, but if not having "the right kit" keeps you from getting the gig at all, you'll be frustrated. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the lable RED is going to magicaly open every door. I've been on jobs where they would state right away they DON'T want to use RED (even though it would have been the best choice for that particular project..). Also I shoudl emntion that all the adaptors, modules, etc you use for the Raven will also fit the weapon. While a lot of people might not see this as an important point, I think it is something to keep in mind. It means you can move up the camera ranks down the line (whether you buy a weapon or rent one for a bigger project) and keep your accessories.

I hope this rather long post helps you with making your decision. If I missed important points please let me know and I'll be happy to edit them.
If anyone has specific questions feel free to send me a PM and I'll get back to you asap.

 

[Demetri Zuev]

10K GBP is 15K USD so I think you're good for a nice Raven starter kit with one extra 120GB SSD, V-mount batteries, LEMO adapters/cables and some monitor arms.

Sony gets better in F territory, FS is pretty much not an option for any serious cinema work.

 

[Elsie N]

James, if I can be permitted to read between the lines of your post, I think you plan on being a RED owner someday. If that be true, the RAVEN is your best opportunity to do that because it is priced well, is a member of the newest platform, and has proven Dragon color science and sensor performance.

What I'm saying is, if that is your aim then you should just do this and start getting familiar with not only the camera, but the system as a whole... and it really is a system rather than just a camera.

 

[Simeon T Geyer]

My real question is; as a DP on a very tight budget, pretty much limited to not a penny over 10k (in GBP), is the Raven a viable option or should I go with the cheaper FS7 option? I just need some form of steering by someone otherwise i'm never going to be completely happy or feel i'm qualified to make the choice.

His budget seems to be £10K not USD ... thats why I mentioned it..

And I absolutely support Elsie's opinion! That's what I sensed from your post, that you want to enter the RED family at some point anyways.
So better now then spenidng money on another sytsem.

 

[Mike P.]

I thought you were talking about real-time auto-focus... like set-it-and-forget-it/tracking-subject-style autofocus, since you mentioned gimbal use and being a single op (the A7 DSLRs and Canon Cx00 dual-pixel modes actually work pretty well.) Foolcontrol is basically wireless follow focus (not so much an auto-focus and geared more towards ACs, not single ops, in my opinion), and tapping the touchscreen to focus on a point mid-shot isn't really functional for single ops unless you're on a tripod (and even then it's still slow).

All of that said, if you're noticing limitations of Sony's image, going to another Sony obviously won't solve that. I'd recommend renting and/or going into a rental house and testing out all the cameras you're looking to purchase (they usually let you test gear for free). Then you'll know right away if it's a codec/camera/sensor/lens thing, or maybe just the way you've been shooting... Did I mention it'd be free and it would answer all of your questions/concerns?

Also, where are you located? I said it in another thread, but I've heard it's actually a bit more difficult to get hired out (with a RED) in some regions outside of North American.

 

[Minu Park]

As a FS7 owner, and Scarlet owner, and Epic dragon (Mostly Rental..) user, I would like to give you several advice for you

I was a photographer, who used to use Mamiya and Hassel V series, and since I came in USA, I just bought canon 5d mk2 for trying video, and eventually, I upgraded it to FS700 than Red scarlet and FS7.

Here is the statement for you. If you need cheap and fast option, I strongly suggest you to not to buy fs7, nor Red. GH4 is great camera, A7RII, A7SII is great camera too.
But, you want upgrade, than here is my take

On the other hand, I would like to give you why do you need to buy FS7, or Red in the circumstances.

1. FS7

- You need internal audio (Maximum 4 Stereo XLR inputs and channel - This is huge)

- You want Run and gun. (High ISO capacity, Speed booster, almost ready to shoot package)

- Reasonable price for the quality of the image that you pay for ( You said that FS7 creates the videoy image, but I think FS7 creates good filmic image, when you shoo it with Cine EI mode with Alexa Luts (Sony Luts that match with Alexa C-LOG LUTS)
10 bit 4:2:2 isn't great as Red's 3:1 maximum quality compression, but it's great for most use - I haven't seen that many indie production uses more than 6:1 compression.
- You don't have to worry about battery, memory card prices.

- No fan noise - Almost none, not much Black shading calibration problem, ***Internal ND

- E mount - You can put what ever lens you want and that's fucking hugeee deal.

2. Red

- You get best image quality. - some says, Ursa Mini is better or some shit... Well... Lord of the ring series used RED camera, not black magic cameras.

- No XLRs

- You have enough hard drive space, and good computer to support your post production, and you don't care about spending extra money for the best image quality.

- No internal ND - You must buy Matte box or screw in NDs.

- No shoulder mount friendly as FS7, but you can hold the camera with two handheld like holding a medium format camera.

- Only Canon mount (Honestly I don't mind canon mount, but some argues that this is the deal.)

- Some fan noise will be audible... In fact, the fan system in RED is getting better and better

-------------

In conclusion:

It's just different camera, it is almost impossible to compare between them.

Because, FS7 is strong point is Versatile. Red's strong point is Image quality. If you don't care anything other than image quality, I strongly suggest you to get Raven.

But, if you were one man band, and some time, you need to shoot without sound and all other indie bull shit. Some times, balance of sound and video is critical as well.

At the end, I am selling my FS7.

It's because, I found a solution to support sound system in RED like FS7, and I don't mind spending another 5K for that good image in my reel.

I don't think I will be hired more when I have RED. In fact, a lot of doc companies like to hire FS7 owners in NYC.

I hope this finds you well.

 

[James Bendkowski]

Thanks for all your replies guys! I'm astounded by how friendly and helpful the RED community is! I've never experienced such a thing on a forum before!

After the exchange of a few PM's with Mr. Quinn i've finally come to the conclusion that the Raven will be the perfect option for me. I'm starting to get to the point where i'm no longer fully satisfied with the 'cinematic' image that I can pull out of my Sony cams and want something with a really exciting dynamic range to play with. I've never shot in RAW either and the possibilities this holds excites me (I've heard mixed reviews of the FS7's codec too).

I've got a couple of V locks already so will most definitely go with the Base I/0 package; i'm also excited to see how much the Raven actually offers as a package and am pleased to hear that it's unlikely to have any severe fan noise (which tbh, would likely be inaudible when shooting run-and-gun action scenes with a shotgun mic)

As much as the FS7 was a tempting option I know that if I were to buy it i'd constantly be looking to RED and regretting it; the DRAGON really seems to knock this one out of the park.

In terms of the shape and usability that Minu brought up; my FS100's were exactly the same, so i've already got a lot of kit in terms of rigs to compensate for that

I'm also going to get hold of the XLR adapter from WoodenCamera as this completely solves my usage of my NTG3!

Unfortunately in this price bracket it starts to also come down to camera reputation when I get hired. It's a cynical thing to say but a lot more people get 'wowed' by the RED brand even if they don't understand the first thing about cameras and that might just help me move a step (if only small) up with my clients. In terms of music video production i'll always want the best image, and don't need to worry about much else; so the Raven wins that fight

If I'm ever required for doco. work i've got the trusty FS100 in a rigging that i've shot many a documentary on and therefore I have that workhorse. The RED can be my stylistic camera for projects that require more cinematography

In terms of Steadicam work; I was in a way meaning the click and track sort of autofocus (begrudgingly) as that's what i've been forced to do in the past. However; the ease of use with Fool Control and the growing crew i'm amassing on my shoots means that coupled with a wireless monitor i'll be fine to work with that...and any jobs that require 1 man autofocusing will see revert back to the FS100

I think in the end I'd sold myself on the Raven but just didn't want to admit it as i've never shelled that amount out on a camera. From all of your very helpful feedback I have confirmed within myself that it's the right next step and might be a bit more future-proofing than the FS7 (somewhat down to my own attachments) hahaha.

And so, with that I shall do a bit of calculation and hopefully preorder my Raven in the next week or so

Once again, thank you for all your help! I look forward to being a member of the REDcommunity!

 

[James Bendkowski]

To answer a couple more questions; the crew I run with always use EF mount lenses so I've always purchased lenses in EF mount form (making the lens transition a lot easier)

I'm located in London (UK) and will most definitely be getting in touch with a rental house this week to test out all options before I finally commit; just incase I suddenly have a crucial thought for something I really require but that slipped my mind here

 

[Ben Scott]

The FS7 in CineEI mode is a phenomenal camera for the money. Still underpriced in my book. A real Swiss Army knife of a camera that can comfortably do 95% of what you might throw at it without breaking a sweat. Small, light, 180fps internal HD or 4K 60fps internal. I have shot corporate, drama, docs, sexy car stuff and commercial studio gigs with it.

It it only falls down when you try to push for the next tier of outright image quality. At this point you can start to see the image break up. Also forget about the raw on the Sony. It is far worse quality than the internal recording. I have found the ceiling of what I can do with mine and so I am going to buy a Red again to compliment it.


Most people not not shooting for higher end productions will never hit this ceiling. If your destination is YouTube/Vimeo you will be fine.

In summary, FS7 for versatility and Red for when you have a touch more control over the environment. And have more lights. I intend to keep both.

Edit: just to add, if you need a return on investment buy a camera for the clients you have, not the clients you wish you had. Don't go into it thinking more people will hire you because you have a Red. My ?London shooting experience is that simply put more people will try to get use of your Red for free

 

[Matthew Quinn]

Glad you are thinking about red. If you Can't find someone willing to test out the camera, you may want to check in with the folks at RED in the UK

Pinewood Studios
Pinewood Road
Iver Heath
Buckinghamshire
SL0 0NH
United Kingdom
redeurope@red.com
+44 (0)1753 785454
+44 (0)1753 785453

GOOD LUCK James!

 

[darren scott]

You basically answered your question own question though. You don't like Sony colours... You don't like blackmagic cameras... You don't like c300 (and by extention the c100). So by a process of elimination (since those are really the only viable options) a Raven would be best for you.

 

[Gene Sung]

I think Ben Scott and Minu made really good points - FS7 for quick jobs and Red for the better jobs. Unlike them, I'm keeping my FS7 as it's become quite the popular camera for my quick cash doc / event type jobs. I also figure selling the FS7 I would take a pretty massive loss and since the camera is fairly cheap to begin with, the devaluation / income ratio makes keeping the FS7 a no-brainer. The FS7 has kind of just taken over on the doc / run and gun world. It's everywhere. Interestingly, on sites like B&H and Adorama, the C300 II has been in stock for weeks. Not a good sign as it just came out recently. The FS7 was impossible to get for months so that plays well for FS7 owners since C300 II and FS7 are generally for the same type of jobs.

Jarred just posted a major hint on Facebook about the Scarlet-Weapon = "Your day is near". That's the one I'm really hoping for as I could really benefit from the PL Mount on certain jobs. Still considering the Mag Weapon, but I can just barely justify the cost. But if they gave Mag Weapon 4K UHD Pro-Res, I just might have to pay the extra cash.