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New to RED - Necessary Skill to work with a RED camera.

Josef Gatti

Josef Gatti

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Hey RED users,

I'm new to this forum, and to RED in general. After some heavy research, I've concluded that RED provide the best camera for me as a film student. I've been saving up for about since high school (a little over 2 years) and I've finally found where to spend my money. My only concern is, if I purchase a RED Scarlet in the future, will I be able to operate one? I spoke to a RED hiring company briefly and the guy advised me not to hire one because I probably wouldn't be able to operate one efficiently. I don't have a huge amount of experience with cameras, the most being on a Canon XLH1A.

I thought I'd introduce myself and just throw this question out there. For experienced RED camera operators, do you think I'll be needing a weekend class or something to pick up the basics? This is all a little overwhelming for me and any feedback you could give me would be great.

Thanks to all.
 
Well, the bad news is it sounds to me like the rental people were right.

It isn't easy to operate a RED, but it isn't impossible either.

That said, you need way more than a weekend class to get going.

A RED requires a crew in my opinion. That means you need an operator and a 1st assistant to pull focus.

I've operated a RED before by myself... as have many others, but it takes skill you probably have not developed yet. Its not hard, you just need lots of practice.

I also advise not lighting RED with reference to the monitors. Most cameras you have used do their best to make the LCD or viewfinder image as much like the final product as possible. RED doesn't.

Most of the displays on a RED don't show the true image you are creating, but are best used for framing and other information. You need to be able to light and expose with just a light meter.

Dealing with the imagery in post also takes some more expertise. Cameras you have used give you a "pre developed" image that is sort of ready to work in an NLE. RED footage needs to go through a process before it works in an NLE. Some NLE's, most notably Premiere CS5, work to do a lot of that process behind the scenes so you can get to work, but its still something you really have to know about.

OK, so what do I recommend?

  • a good light meter (Sekonics 758Cine if you are serious about this)
  • a Canon 7D or a Rebel T2i
  • a good low end follow focus (I recommend a Cinevate Durus)
  • rails and a mounting system.

What you are trying to learn is how to work with an assistant and maintain focus. You are also trying to learn how to manually expose a camera using a light meter.

Don't worry about all the noise here about how bad the camera is or whatever. That's irrelevant to what you are trying to learn.

OK so you have the gear, now what? You need a partner in crime... someone who wants to learn like you who can be the 1st AC. Play nice, sometimes you be the 1st AC and let them operate.

Now you have to go shoot a lot. Go outside and try and get some nature footage... trees, clouds animals etc etc. Once you get decent at that, then its time to bring in some handy friends to walk around play some simple scenes.

Now the whole time you'd be responsible for exposing the camera and keeping it in focus. (I'd also buy a couple of lights and practice lighting! Some chinaballs and a fresnel or two should be plenty.)

Once you have those skills down, then maybe you can hire a RED, or get a local film maker to barter with you so that you can shoot one on some minor production. Maybe a fake commercial or the like.

Take your time and practice practice practice. Learning film making is almost as much fun as making films.

I'd love to recommend a book or two to you about operation, and particularly about following focus, but I've never seen a good text on the matter. The best I suppose is "The Camera Assistant's Manual" by David E Elkins.

It has a good chapter on focusing and considerations. The bulk of the book deals with film cameras though... and it will be a while before that concerns you. Its a goldmine of things you need to know that no one may think to tell you. For example, the proper way to mark actors, or how to detect and deal with lens flares... bunches of stuff.

Note that I have not covered posting RED. You don't have to shoot RED to learn this part. You can download RED footage in various places and start learning to use RED software tools to process them at your leisure.

Before you do that, I recommend you learn about color correction. Apple's Color is probably the most readily available software that gives you access to real color correction... but RedCine is increasingly good as a learning tool too. Still, I'd study up on a "real" color correction suite.
 
Peter Majtan said:
Did You have a look at the REDUCATION?

http://www.reducation.net/

:) Peter
Click to expand...

Oh, I think I see where this fellow is coming from. I think they chose the word "operate" carefully in speaking to him.

Hence my advice.

REDUCATION would be a great next step though, instead of hiring a RED or somehow trading for time on one.

I don't think it will be useful to anyone who isn't already able to operate a camera in a film style workflow. The cheaper the camera you learn this on, and the more time you can devote to it, the better. (For the record, I think exposure is part of operation.)

I also think REDUCATION students should already have significant hands on lighting experience. They don't need to be union gaffers, but they should have lit a few things- at least as a student/hobbyist.

So... learn to follow focus and learn to expose, then when you are ready to try a RED for real head out to REDUCATION.
 
Josef, there is no problem for you to operate a Red or a Scarlet !

The Red have lots of setup and fonction but you don't need to play with all those setting. (but you can if you want more fine tuning and control)

Set the ISO to 320 (which is already the default setting in the camera) and shoot!

All you have to do is to set the IRIS and pull the FOCUS on the lens ! (The Scarlet will have autofocus with AF lens)

If you want more control on outside shooting put a mattebox with ND filter to cut the amount of light.

Don't be afraid, there is a lot of urban legend outside about the Red. :smash:

JIM JANNARD

1... 2... 3...

Shooting a RED camera.

1. Set up your camera
Load latest firmware
Do a Black Shade Calibration (lens cap on, T22)
Format media (CF card, RED RAM, etc.)
(If you are renting a RED ONE, do a "restore settings" to clear any previous settings that may be left over from a previous job)


2. Set up your project.
Select a project size like 4K 2:1, 4K 16:9, 4K Quad HD, 4.5K 2.33:1, 3K 2:1, etc.
Select a project frame rate base like 23.976 (default), 24 or 25.
Select a color space like REDcolor (default) or RAW


3. Set ISO/ASA and exposure Do tests before your shoot!
Set camera White Balance (or better yet, shoot a MacBeth, grey card or other white reference in the scene and set WB in post).
Use your light meter
Use the camera exposure tools
• Check your histogram.
• Stay inside the "goal posts"- Noise floor (left) and clipping (right) in RAW with Build 30
• Check "RAW Check"- Noise floor (purple) and clipping (red) in RAW with Build 30.
• Check "barber pole"- RAW with Build 30.
• Check "stop lights"- RAW with Build 30.
• Use False Color

RECORD.
Click to expand...

Editing with FinalCut Pro and the proxys is very easy.

EDITING WITH RED "MYTHBUSTERS", Check this out: http://www.red.com/red_mythbusters/

Download and read the manual ! It could help you to understand the fonction and the possibility of the Red One even if you don't use 95% of those fonction. :smiley:
http://www.red.com/support

Regards
 
Gino Papineau said:
Josef, there is no problem for you to operate a Red or a Scarlet !

The Red have lots of setup and fonction but you don't need to play with all those setting. (but you can if you want more fine tuning and control)

Set the ISO to 320 (which is already the default setting in the camera) and shoot!

All you have to do is to set the IRIS and pull the FOCUS on the lens ! (The Scarlet will have autofocus with AF lens)

If you want more control on outside shooting put a mattebox with ND filter to cut the amount of light.

Don't be afraid, there is a lot of urban legend outside about the Red. :smash:



Editing with FinalCut Pro and the proxys is very easy.

EDITING WITH RED "MYTHBUSTERS", Check this out: http://www.red.com/red_mythbusters/

Download and read the manual ! It could help you to understand the fonction and the possibility of the Red One even if you don't use 95% of those fonction. :smiley:
http://www.red.com/support

Regards
Click to expand...

I disagree with Gino.

I don't know you so I may be way off base... but setting the aperture and focus is a skill that must be learned, and if your experience is with XL-H1 then you probably haven't learned these skills yet.

Go learn them on a cheap camera.

Everyone else is saying that shooting RED isn't particularly hard, but they are all assuming you already know how to shoot a camera. Its true shooting a RED is no different than shooting any other film camera.

A badly operated RED will produce crappy images. There is no magic post technique or setting in the camera that makes you a good camera operator or a star 1st AC.

All those settings and details are specific to RED, and while they are different than what you can do on a XL-H1, they are even less important because the RED records RAW.

Screw up the aperture or focus and you are completely out of the game. Get those right and RED can be very forgiving as you learn.

Oh, and PLEASE forget about autofocus. Really. Its a bad thing... so don't do it. Scarlet and Epic won't really do autofocus in the traditional sense anyway.

What the Scarlet and Epic will allow is for you to use the servo motors of SLR lenses to control focus instead of the focus ring... but that's another matter, and you can deal with that when it arrives.

If you learn these skills with a cheap camera, then RED will be EASY to operate.

So ignore these guys... go get a T2i or a 7D and start building the real skills of cinematography, then when you get your Scarlet you'll be able to hit the ground running. (and you'll be floored by what a REAL camera can do!)
 
How to hammer a nail: The right hammer. A proper grip with a low choke. Keep you eye on the head of the nail. Keep your fingers out of the way. Swing. Repeat on hundreds and hundreds of nails until you master it.

The moral: Its not the hammer that's hard to use. It's the technique you use when you swing it.

Shooting the RED isn't difficult. If you are comfortable shooting ANY video camera IN FULL MANUAL mode, then you'll be fine to operate a RED. Just like the hammer, the camera isn't the thing you should be afraid of, its the technique you use (or don't use) that will make the difference between good or bad images.

To be fair, there is a lot to the camera, but not anything more complicated than any Prosumer DV/HDV camera. And with a little time you'll figure it all out. If you buy a camera, and shoot with it every day, after a few weeks, you'll know the camera inside and out. You could certainly do some REDUCATION, and get a bit of a jump start.

But, I hope the point that Alexander is making is; If you want to record beautiful images, then you need to understand the principals of lighting and photography. The camera is just a tool for recording an image. Its not the camera's fault if your images look like crap.
 
Gino Papineau said:
Josef, there is no problem for you to operate a Red or a Scarlet !

The Red have lots of setup and fonction but you don't need to play with all those setting. (but you can if you want more fine tuning and control)

Set the ISO to 320 (which is already the default setting in the camera) and shoot!

All you have to do is to set the IRIS and pull the FOCUS on the lens ! (The Scarlet will have autofocus with AF lens)

If you want more control on outside shooting put a mattebox with ND filter to cut the amount of light.

Don't be afraid, there is a lot of urban legend outside about the Red. :smash:



Editing with FinalCut Pro and the proxys is very easy.

EDITING WITH RED "MYTHBUSTERS", Check this out: http://www.red.com/red_mythbusters/

Download and read the manual ! It could help you to understand the fonction and the possibility of the Red One even if you don't use 95% of those fonction. :smiley:
http://www.red.com/support

Regards
Click to expand...
Great post.
 
My recommendation:

Step One:
Drop out of film school.

Step Two:
Find a local Production shooting on Red.

Step Three:
Become Camera Intern

Step Four:
Be curious and observant, ask questions but follow set etiquette and don't annoy the people. Go back to step two 3 or 4 times if you can, and try to get paid by the fourth job.

Step Five:
Try to get a job at the Rental House that has the Reds

Step Six:
Save up and buy a red.

Step Seven:
Master your Red, and become a 4K Ninja or some other Branding stereotype and start making money, and shoot your own projects.
 
Josef, there is no Scarlet camera available right now. It's been a little while, it's going to continue to be a little while before it arrives.

In the mean time. Buy yourself a Canon 5d mk2 and a copy of Understand Exposure. Practice (a lot) with getting exposure correct using the ISO/f Stop/Shutter Speed triangle of exposure.

Once you feel you have the hang of exposing, attempt composition. Only then do you press the video button.

Now practice pulling manual focus while composing frame and using those exposure skills.

Once you have all of those down, and you're making what you consider to be pretty cool movies, buy the Scarlet.

Because it will have just been announced.

(definitely not trying to sound condescending here, but I firmly believe in this Karate Kid method for camera skills)
 
Josef, although the advice here seems to be in disagreement, all of it is sage in some way or another. For me, nothing beats shooting. Don't be afraid and if the Scarlet was available now, I'd say go right ahead and buy it. Nobody will die if you screw it up (and you will) and you (and your film school mates) will have a hoot of a time practicing (just don't raise a couple of million from private investors until you're sure you can deliver).

But these cameras are much easier to use to 90% than almost anything else I've shot on. OK, focus is hard on the Red One (and the size is daunting) but you're asking about a Scarlet 2/3" - easier but still no doddle. I would say it's easier to get a good image from a Red than from any prosumer video cam or VDSLR. Getting great images from the red is hard - but impossible on those other cameras.

If you have projects you want to make and you believe buying a camera is better for you than hiring - go for it. Everyone is right. Practice, practice, practice. Get onto a crew. Study, learn, practice - but above all else, practice. Your crime will not be in having bought a camera and making mistakes. Your crime will have been to have not made your films - no matter what camera you buy or hire. If buying a Scarlet is going to help you make more films then it's a great decision. If buying a Scarlet will mean you'll spend the next 30 years shooting weddings and industrial crap just to pay for it, don't do it.
 
Re: Iris and pulling focus, it's similar to any prosumer cam DVX,HVX etc set in manual mode. Focus is tricky on RED because of how much larger the chip is than the prosumer cams (that's what gives it that super shallow depth of field). Other than following focus on moving subject shots, the RED is the easiest camera to get good images out of in my opinion.

As said before in this thread, skill on the RED really comes into play when making great images.

Don't drop out of film school, just make sure you go to one where they actually make films.

My biggest complaint about the RED one from a film making student perspective is the weight, it's quite a kit to drag around to shoot stuff by yourself. But, since you're talking about scarlet, it sounds like it might be a good fit.

The best advice I can give is buy whatever you can afford and start today, when scarlet is released, sell whatever you've got and buy it having already made a couple films!

Cal
 
Don't listen to the naysayers--that's not how you progress in your skillset. Plus, if you really cant figure it out, you wont lose a whole lot selling it.
 
Kyle Mallory said:
How to hammer a nail: The right hammer. A proper grip with a low choke. Keep you eye on the head of the nail. Keep your fingers out of the way. Swing. Repeat on hundreds and hundreds of nails until you master it.

The moral: Its not the hammer that's hard to use. It's the technique you use when you swing it.

Shooting the RED isn't difficult. If you are comfortable shooting ANY video camera IN FULL MANUAL mode, then you'll be fine to operate a RED. Just like the hammer, the camera isn't the thing you should be afraid of, its the technique you use (or don't use) that will make the difference between good or bad images.

To be fair, there is a lot to the camera, but not anything more complicated than any Prosumer DV/HDV camera. And with a little time you'll figure it all out. If you buy a camera, and shoot with it every day, after a few weeks, you'll know the camera inside and out. You could certainly do some REDUCATION, and get a bit of a jump start.

But, I hope the point that Alexander is making is; If you want to record beautiful images, then you need to understand the principals of lighting and photography. The camera is just a tool for recording an image. Its not the camera's fault if your images look like crap.
Click to expand...

Thank you Kyle, that is the point I am trying to make. Next time I have to make it I will remember your hammer example.

I do have a minor nitpick... I don't think the skills for operating a RED can be gained with any video camera. Focus is a different matter for RED and other cinema cameras, and requires more skill.

With a camera like the XL-H1 most things are nearly in focus all the time. Out of focus areas are not that obvious while you are working. Often soft focus turns out acceptable even when you buzzed the subject a bit. To me its harder to learn to follow focus in that environment.

I think you need a camera with a large enough sensor so that you must learn follow focus... and I think that means at least a 2/3" sensor, but I prefer to practice on S35 or larger sensors. As a learning tool, I want out of focus areas to be clearly out of focus, and that includes when you just barely miss focus.

Hence my recommendation for a T2i, 7D or similar camera. APS-C is a very good match for S35 when learning the focus skill.

As a side benefit, when working with APS-C you need to often need to use the same lens for any given shooting situation that you would choose using S35. I believe that helps me keep my shot size estimating skills sharp for when I am working with a set of primes on RED or S35.

Of course if I owned a RED, as opposed to renting, I'd just go shoot with my RED all the time and practice that way.

When I think of the OP though, they are a young film student. I'd want to practice a lot before investing my savings in ANY camera system. In this way I could learn a lot more about what it is I value in a camera system.

I am interested in the developing crop of so called "EVIL" cameras for this as well. I am anxious for an EVIL system that uses an APS-C sensor and Canon or Nikon lenses.
 
Cal Brunker said:
Don't drop out of film school, just make sure you go to one where they actually make films.
Click to expand...

I can't say this enough. It seems flip, but its very true.

Film school is fine- provided you don't already have some sort of university/college degree.

The problem with most film schools is that they don't make films. Instead they teach you to be a critic.

That's useless.

If you are going to one of the schools where they make lots of films you'll be in good shape.

If you really like your film school and it happens to be one of the ones that doesn't get into film making, then RUN out to work on film productions in every instant of your spare time. So long as you are working with pros who are willing to spend at least a little time teaching you, it will be time well spent.
 
One of the best cameras I ever owned was my Nikkormat. It was a fully manual, built like a tank, learning machine. The advice from the posts above varies, but it centers around a central theme, learn the basics. The Red is a very basic kind of camera, wrapped in a Ferrari. If you understand how to expose, focus, frame, and on and on, you can operate the Red. It doesn't stop with the shooting, then comes post.

Shortly after I purchased the Nikkormat in 1972, I wanted to learn more. As fate would have it, a fellow had just purchased a complete darkroom setup but quickly lost interest, so I was able to buy it for a song. That began my love for working in a darkroom and further learning. This entire process never stops, so you will have to jump in at some point to get your feet wet. Many ways of doing it, not one of them "the best". We have ALL come to this from different walks of life and varying vantage points. But the common thread is a love for the craft and how we can improve ourselves. That's what makes RedUser such a boon, the ability to talk with folks who have VAST amounts of experience greater than ourselves, allowing us to grow.

So, choose a path and get going. Your future awaits.
 
If you want to become a great red camera operator, then sure. Buy a red, learn everything about it, crew for other cam ops etc.

If you want to become a great DOP then save your money, buy a t2i, buy a few lights, a light meter (the Spectra Cine-IVA is only about $350 and gives you everything you need except for a spot metering system) and learn all the characteristics of what makes good light. As wonderful as the Red is compared to the dslrs, all of that quality doesn't mean anything if you don't understand light and composition. Use these purchases to shoot as much as you possibly can, then rent the Red for that one special project in film school.

When I first started shooting, I learned how to light to reversal film stock and I hated it. There was no latitude for error in exposure and I made plenty of mistakes. But all these mistakes taught me to be careful on set, and to be very observant of changing light conditions and values across my frame. In a sense, the dslrs can provide this same limiting experience. You have to get it right on those little cameras. And this can be the best lesson for learning about cinematography.
 
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