New to Avid and RED workflow

[Joe Pontecorvo]

I am working on a long form documentary, with what will be loads of footage shot over a period of 18 months.
My previous experience is with FCP 7 and DNxHD files are new to me. I would like to transcode to DNxHD in REDCINE X and then reconnect back to the original R3D files for the final on line and color correction.
When dealing with a large amount of footage, what is the best workflow that will enable me to reconnect my material to the original files at the end of my edit?
I have been reading through some of the posts and am still a bit confused as to the best way to do this.

 

[MichaelP]

The process is pretty much the same - transcode to DNxHD from REDCINE X. Since you are doing an offline to online workflow, then DNxHD 36 will most likely be your target resolution. Once editing is complete, and depending on where and how you do your conform/online, you will either send out an EDL or AAF for a third party system or send a pull list back to REDCINE X (EDL) and generate your high resolution files (DNxHD 175x), import and relink. See this 1 hour webinar on the different workflows: http://tinyurl.com/29ue8mm

Michael

 

[Nick Morrison]

Another thing to consider is exporting MXF media directly from RED CINE X. That's a workflow we just recently employed at AETN last week, at it worked well. Remember, DNxHD is just a quicktime codec that is Avid friendly. But it's still a quicktime, it's still in a more "final cut: friendly form, if you will. Avid will still have to import these quicktimes and transcode them, though because the codec is native this will happen much faster.

But...you are still importing. If you have 10hrs of footage in QTS, this import can still take a while. And by a while...I mean hours.

Now MXF media is literally the media that Avid works off of. If you transcode directly to MXF media from RED CINE X, you can just transfer the MXF media into your Avid Media Files folder and you should be up and running. Its not "quite" as easy as that, you have to put them in the exact right place, and I'm not certain of the exact workflow right now (the engineers did it), but I can tell you it worked.

Once the MXF media copied over (in like an hour), we were ready to go.

No importing.

Hope this helps, opens up some new options for you.

- N

 

[Joe Pontecorvo]

Thank you, this is really helpful. I did think about converting my RED files to QT proxy files and importing them into Avid, but I noticed with the creation of the MXF files all the meta data was preserved and I dis not see that sam level of information on the QT files. Am I wrong?

So if I go with converting to MXF files I have a very basic question: how do I view and log these MXF files outside of Media Composer?
Long ago I recall an Avid Media Logger, but I was only able to find something called Interplay Assist, but very little information , and not even sure if it works on Mac, or not or how much it costs. I also found software called calibrated Q MXF Import, but this software costs 249.95 per license.
I know there is probably a standard way of logging and viewing that I am probably missing.

 

[MichaelP]

Depending on how long the job goes for, you can always download the 30 day full functional free trial from avid.com. If you're logging, you really want to to that within the Media Composer bin. MediaLog will not work for you as a file-based version that reads media was never created.

Michael

 

[Joe Pontecorvo]

Thanks Michael, I will try that as a solution for now.

 

[Job ter Burg]

Avid will still have to import these quicktimes and transcode them

MC will not have to transcode DNxHD Quicktime movies, only import them. Which is essentially a process of splitting the audio and video tracks, and copying them into MXF containers.

 

[MichaelP]

MC will not have to transcode DNxHD Quicktime movies, only import them. Which is essentially a process of splitting the audio and video tracks, and copying them into MXF containers.

Yes, this is a "fast import" and can be fairly quick. The only downside is managing the 2x drive space needed. Importing is a copy so you either have to go back and delete the original QT wrapped DNxHD or keep them. If doing this on a separate system, the issue is the same, but if transcoding on the same system as the editing system, there are fewer steps, and faster to use MXF wrapped DNxHD. Other consideration will be that "import" puts source file name in a column called "Source File" while MXF native puts it into a column called TAPE. Depending on how you want to conform back later can make a difference. You still cannot start one way (MXF transcode) and conform another (AMA relink) with R3D files that are spanned due to the inability of AMA to ignore the _001 spanned file name compared to the TAPE that does not have it.

Plan ahead.

Michael

 

[M Most]

You still cannot start one way (MXF transcode) and conform another (AMA relink) with R3D files that are spanned due to the inability of AMA to ignore the _001 spanned file name compared to the TAPE that does not have it.

That is, of course, true - but only if you want to relink in Media Composer or Symphony. Other programs, such as Resolve and Scratch (among others) don't have a problem ignoring the extension and relinking to original media that is identified by a tape name that either represents the original file name (minus the extension) or matches the tape name in the original file header (which is the case with R3D files). So if the relinking is being done in the grading or finishing system, there is no problem. It should also be pointed out that the problem only exists with R3D files because of the spanning/naming scheme. In MC6, you can relink sources that were identified with tape name to files with the same name - which is the case with, say, Alexa Prores files, provided the tape name supplied originally represented the full file name (without the extension).

Of course this does beg the question: does DS have the same limitation (I don't believe it does.....)?

 

[Peter Moretti]

... Remember, DNxHD is just a quicktime codec that is Avid friendly. But it's still a quicktime, it's still in a more "final cut: friendly form, if you will. Avid will still have to import these quicktimes and transcode them, though because the codec is native this will happen much faster. ,,,

Nick this really isn't the case. QT and MXF are wrappers while DNxHD is a codec. DNxHD isn't a QT codec per se, as DNxHD can be wrapped in either MXF or QT.

 

[MichaelP]

Mike Most is correct. my shorthand use of the term "AMA" was to point that an Avid MC/Symphony offline to Avid MC/Symphony online still has the spanned file issue with R3D files. Works fine in third party systems regardless of filename being tracked as Source File or Tape.

Michael

 

[Joe Pontecorvo]

Ok, so is this a proper procedure for importing MXF files into Avid:
1. Transcode files in REDCINE X to MXF files (in my case: DNxHD36)
2. Output with original clip names to a folder I select.
3. Drag all my MXF files into my Avid Media Folder: MXF/1/all my MXF clips
4. Import "AvidExport.ale" and reconnect the clips

I will be generating easily over 500 hours of footage over the next 18 months, and this is the very beginning for me so I want to get this workflow right so I can reconnect to my original footage at the end of my edit.

ALTERNATE: I could go with a more familiar system at lead at this stage for logging purposes - our edit will not begin until much later, but not a fan of doing the work twice.
1. Transcode RED files in REDCINE X to Quicktime files (prores proxy files in my case)
2. Log files
3. Import into Avid using AMA?
4. But I am not sure then how to re-link back to the original RED files at the end.

Sorry for the 101 here, mostly I need to log the footage for now, but would rather not transcode twice, and my biggest concern is relinking to the original files at the end of the process, 18 months later.

 

[Joe Pontecorvo]

I realize this should be another post, but I have one more question. I did a little experimenting with my timebase frame rate, and now I am paying for it.
Avid refuses to import my 48fps timebase, so what is the best way of dealing with that footage?

In FCP I can use Cinema Tools to convert frame rates, does something similar exist for Avid? OR better yet, is there a way I can converts frame rates in REDCINE X?

 

[MichaelP]

If you are looking at 2x slomo from 48fps native to 24fps playback, then REDCINE X should do that as part of the transcode process if the base rate was set to 48fps in the camera. Is that the case?

Michael

 

[Joe Pontecorvo]

Hi Michael, yes exactly. The only reason I set the base frame rate at 48 fps was simply that I still wanted audio to be recorded.
I know how to transcode QT and change the frame rate, but how do I change the frame rate when transcoding DNxHD files?

More detail: When I select 1080p/23.976 DNxHD36 8-bit and export, then import into Avid it gave me a frame rate error and did not let me input, but then that was a batch of mixed frame rates. Do you think that could be the problem.

OR a simpler question: when I select 1080p/23.976 DNxHD36 8-bit does it use the native base frame rate of the clip, OR does it convert everything to 23.976?

 

[MichaelP]

The only way to trick a frame for frame import into a given Media Composer project is to import (not AMA) a V track only QuickTime file and entering "IgnoreQTRate True" in the console before doing so. This will import frame for frame resulting in a 23.976 playback from whatever the original frame was - so a 48fps would be 2x slomo at 24fps.

Michael

 

[Joe Pontecorvo]

The only way to trick a frame for frame import into a given Media Composer project is to import (not AMA) a V track only QuickTime file and entering "IgnoreQTRate True" in the console before doing so. This will import frame for frame resulting in a 23.976 playback from whatever the original frame was - so a 48fps would be 2x slomo at 24fps.

Michael

Thank you Michael, I really appreciate you time on this.

 

[Joe Pontecorvo]

Michael, in your Avid workflow process do you usually transcode to Quicktime or DNxHD files?
I'm just curious about the pros and cons of these two methods.

 

[MichaelP]

I always go directly to MXF wrapped DNxHD. There is no real reason for me to go to QuickTime wrapped DNxHD as it still becomes an import process (albeit fast import). In your situation where the camera base frame rate was not set, then going to QuickTime becomes the viable workaround for getting slomo back in Media Composer. Until the mix & match feature allows for "frame for frame", it needs to be done outside the system. I work in long form, so I start with a DNxHD 36 offline, then can decide how the online will be done. If back in an Avid product, I do a pull list (EDL) send selects to REDCINE X Pro, regenerate media at 175x (eventually DNxHD 444 when it gets added to third party SDK), bring selects back into Avid product and "relink to selected". If going third party, then EDL or AAF to products like Resolve, etc. also work, but layers and effects will need to be managed as separate elements in many cases.

Michael

 

[Joe Pontecorvo]

Thanks Micheal, That is very helpful. Since only a handful of REDMAGS have mixed timebase rates I have decided to export as DNxHD - except for those select few mags. For that I will transcode as QT first. Because this is an 18 months natural history shoot I will be generating a lot of data. So, the more space I can save the better.