Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

New Sony´s F35

When I read about the F23 and F35 I get depressed at the price and the poor resolution. Most digital cameras these days have more then 2Mpix. I'm also very happy that RED company exists and strive to make a top camera with todays technology, and don't hold back :)

Thank you Jim and RED people you are doing a amazing job!

Cheers
 
'we' want interchangeable lens option in scarlet.
Click to expand...

'We' want an affordable (i.e. less than 5$) Ferrari Enzo !

I'm sorry, but everything is not necessarily economically feasible. I'd rather get a very good quality lightweight mass-produced 2/3" 3K fixed lens camera like "Scarlet" than anything else currently available under 3000$, considering what is "economically feasible" in that price-range! After all, what you're asking for is exactly what the Red-One is!
 
Having worked years ago on one of the first HD feature films to have a completely digital production and post-production pipeline, I would say don't get caught up in 'resolution'. It is all about the picture's dynamic range. When you watch Speed Racer playing back from a Doremi through a 2K Christie is anyone going to really care that it was shot using a lesser pixel count than that capable of RED? What is great about RED is that it has opened up so many doors and been embraced by other technology companies excited about the future of the product. RED is a breath of fresh air and I'm looking forward to seeing full length feature films using RED and RED only. Talking of resolution, however, If you're at IBC this year get along to the Super Hi-Vision demo at the NHK theatre (get your free ticket from Hall 8 info point). They'll be showing 7680 pixels on 4320 lines on a 6.95m diagonal screen. I'm hoping people will be impressed!
 
Guys,

It's a sick discussion we have here. Have you test a F35, or even a F23? I do some test with F23 and it's an incredible camera, the dynamic range is better than the red cam (at least 2 stop). And I will take this camera in any condition (temperature, humidity), I'm really not so sur to do the same with the Red...So stop bashing on product with the only price comparison. Price is not the only matter when you shoot a movie that cost 150K US a day...
 
Beyond resolution--

The latitude is the key area that I am hesitant to consider a Red One.

Film is king. Several other cameras have better dynamic range. I believe this stems from the 12bit linear sensor.

Questions:

1. Can Red One be upgraded in the future to 14bit or 16bit?

2. What bit depth will Epic have?

3. What bit depth will Scarlett have?

4. Will there be a logarithmic instead of linear R3D scheme?

5. Exactly what is the equivalent log to lin ratio when converting color spaces at 12 bit, 14 bit and 16 bit lin? As in, what is the equivalent logarithmic bit depth?
 
mail4joeg said:
Beyond resolution--

The latitude is the key area that I am hesitant to consider a Red One.

Film is king. Several other cameras have better dynamic range. I believe this stems from the 12bit linear sensor.

Questions:

1. Can Red One be upgraded in the future to 14bit or 16bit?

2. What bit depth will Epic have?

3. What bit depth will Scarlett have?

4. Will there be a logarithmic instead of linear R3D scheme?

5. Exactly what is the equivalent log to lin ratio when converting color spaces at 12 bit, 14 bit and 16 bit lin? As in, what is the equivalent logarithmic bit depth?
Click to expand...

I await correction on this, but this is how I see it:

1. From my reading, I believe the extra two bits in current 14 bit cameras are wasted - ie. they are not containing meaningful information, just noise. So you could have a 14 bit camera, and for your trouble you would get bigger files and little else.

2 & 3. See 1.

4. Since digital sensors are linear in nature, I don't see how this is helpful.

5. You can fit 16 bit lin into 10 bit log, in a manner of speaking. If I understand correctly, it is a form of compression.



Now, this is all with current sensor technology. I certainly hope future cameras will have sensors which can support 14 bit files.



But now, back to the thread topic. (What was it again? Oh yeah...)



In full Sony tradition, I'm sure the F35 will be superb, a real joy to use. I'm equally sure that its made using the absolute peak of technology - from five years ago (give or take). It also will be designed to make use entirely of existing technology and workflows (S.Two, SR, etc.). This has strengths and weaknesses that I'm sure we're all aware of. SR at 1080 certainly looks great, having worked with 16mm 200T transferred to SR, it blows 16mm out of the water.


That said, will it be great? Yes. Will it threaten your RED investment? Very little.
 
Log encoding is just a way of compressing data such that you rob from highlight precision to preserve shadow precision. The exact parameters of that log curve give you how many stops of shadow data are preserved at full precision and at which point the highlight compression sets in. This works, because in a linear sensor, you have a lot more code values per stop for the brightest highlights than you do the shadows. Each stop from brightest down to darkest has half as many code values assigned to it in a linear system.

Therefore, there is not a simple x log = y linear light equivalence. REDLog, for instance is designed for 12bit sensor data to 10bit log, preserving precision in the darkest 8 stops and compressing the brightest 4 stops.

Graeme
 
Mike Prevette said:
the F35 doesn't look that bad. I'd shoot with it in a heartbeat, but my only point is at this point it's even less proven than the Red in the field. We should e fair with our criticism. Nothing i perfect Sony nor Red.
Click to expand...

But, Red has proven customer service, Sony doesn't. In fact, their customer service sucks :bleh:
 
DJ-NEAL said:
Having worked years ago on one of the first HD feature films to have a completely digital production and post-production pipeline, I would say don't get caught up in 'resolution'. It is all about the picture's dynamic range.
Click to expand...
No. It's obviously about both. 2K resolution is fine if you are happy with somewhat soft images on larger screens. If you are not and try to be (really) sharp with 2K the lack of resolution becomes apparent as the pixel grid starts to show up in the form of aliasing, and digital sharpening tricks give the picture a processed, unnatural look. You are trying to make the picture something it is not and you pay the price. There is no substitute for resolution, neither dynamic range nor anything else.
 
Pawel Achtel said:
But, Red has proven customer service, Sony doesn't. In fact, their customer service sucks :bleh:
Click to expand...

Hi,

To be honest I have had very few times I have needed to call Sony for service in the last 25 years, I never wated more than 24 hours for a repair to be completed so I can't complain. When working in central London an engineer was onsite in 45 minutes leaving 1 hour later.

Stephen
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi,

To be honest I have had very few times I have needed to call Sony for service in the last 25 years, I never wated more than 24 hours for a repair to be completed so I can't complain. When working in central London an engineer was onsite in 45 minutes leaving 1 hour later.

Stephen
Click to expand...

Here, in Sydney, Sony has terrible reputation. Just about anything is like pulling teeth out. Warranty is terrible. And sales: arogant, unreliable, ignorant and, well, expensive. You simply pull your hair out and prey there was an alternative, any alternative...

Well, I think there is one now... :biggrin:

I feel relief I rid of just about any piece of gear with Sony sticker on it. I had solid 6-figures invested in Sony gear, now it is less than $2k.

I think someone would have to be mad to buy F23 or F35 from this mob, doesn't matter what it does. I wouldn't pay $500 for it, seriously.

Also, my opinion is not unique, in fact it is quite common here.
 
Jason Ing said:
True, but it does matter when the entire movie costs less then 150k (but it will look like it costs 150k a day).
Click to expand...

Unfortunatly you will not be able to convice me, Jason sorry. Making a good movie is not only to have a 4K worklow behind...But you can try, I will be the first to congratulate you during the Oscar ceremony :)
 
Sony is not my favorite company by any means, but I have always disliked kneejerk bashing of Sony. I shot something recently on the EX3 and we had a really great experience with that camera. Let's also recall that Sony's F900 blazed the trail for digital cinema in many ways. Red and Jim are obviously changing the whole game, and we all love them, otherwise we would not be here, but I hope we can be fair and even-handed when discussing other products and companies. Pay attention to someone like David Mullen. He is always even-handed in these types of threads. It's one of the reasons he is respected here.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top