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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

New Scarlet owner - lost in the woods..

Good to hear about the events being possible on the Scarlet. I was planning to shoot with my Sony Z5 and Ninja (ProResHQ) for coverage and the Scarlet for intimate shallow DoF-type stuff. Can I ask the event shooters what acceptable RedRaw compression ratio you've used successfully? Or indeed what is the highest usable compression ratio that will intercut with ProResHQ? And I'm not that concerned with low light. Theres actually plenty of light available at a wedding as the Bride is always wanting to be seen!! It just takes careful planning as some of you have said (and clearly been in a similar situation)

My Scarlet kit is comprising of camera,ssd and side handle, 4 redvolts and 2 chargers, xlr power lead (for my PAG battery belt usually for my Arri 16ST) 2 128GB cards, outrigger handle and the mic lead. I'll attach a decent shotgun mic to allow runandgun, but I always have a lavalier mic on the groom and the Z5 has good audio so i'm only mildly concerned with fan noise but will certainly keep it in mind !( and having shot with an Arri 16, i'm used to a sewing machine in the corner..grin!) As regards to weight. I shoot with an Arri 16mm.. Nuff said. And in a preious life was a BBC chappie so have lived with heavy cameras sat on shoulder/handheld. I've alo loaded my Z5 and Ninja onto my steadicam (approx 10lbs) so my arms are up to the job!!

I have FCP 7 and Premier - and more than happy to transcode overnight so that isn't an issue.

And although you guys are right that at present there are few who will need 4k weddings, thee are plenty that will WANT one as its the new thing... And as someone pointed out, the ability to crop-in and capture stills is wonderful. So, a small market at present but why not be on the wagon ready to roll !! The more films seen being made on the Red range - the more people who will 'just have to have it' at their wedding....

Simon Knight
MediaHound Films
 
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I think there is a misconception on the benefits of shooting 4K, of course none of your clients will see the image in 4K in the near future, and neither will you because none of us have 4K monitors. But by shooting 4K you get a huge amount of information to play with in post, and once you're ready for delivery the 4K downsamples to a beautiful 1080p/2K image, and thats where you'll see the benefit of 4K for now. Im a big fan of getting it right in camera but you can crop, pan and scan, re-frame, which is extremely useful for event coverage when the shooting style can be very quick, hectic etc and you cant always nail a shot because you have to move on to the next one. Shooting 4K brings so many benefits that you really start to understand once you start shooting it and working with the RAW files. Once 4K exhibition really picks up we'll see those benefits as well.
 
Absolutely Carlos... no-one is going to appreciate 4K for a while... However if RedRay gets out in the wild anytime soon..>!

I'm currently working on a project filming in the cockpit of a G5 jet. The client (CAA) wants a close up of certain parts of the ops screens and the ability to "crop in" would be wonderful... Currently having to film with two cams or a second shoot with a different angle...Oh well.. we"ll have to wait and see..

Weddings especially are a crazy event. I charge a lot more for "down-grading" the image when someone wants 16mm or even Super8 footage. To go the opposite direction and fulfil the "techno-geek's" dream of a 4K wedding... I dribble at the thought>>!

Happy New Year to you all..

SK
 
Eh still think its the wrong tool for the job. I grew up with a very well known wedding photographer as my mentor. I know a lot about shooting situations...

For all who are saying "you can pull a still from a 4K video file".... you can, but why? and is that going to be in focus, bright, and not blurry because of a 50th shutter speed?? Are all of you saying this ever ACTUALLY do this with a paid client??

I think its simply ridiculous to think its a good idea for a one man band photographer to do this kinda thing at all. REAL wedding photographers do this day in and day out. They have a few assistants and many camera bodies with them at all times. And yes I've had RED currupet footage, so yeah I consider that failing.

MOST wedding shoots end up being in a darkly lit hall with few options to get more light in without remote flashes and lights setup. Lots of churches may have big windows, but a lot of those times the windows are BEHIND the bride and groom... You going to get a great 4K still from that horribly back lit scene?? Or are you going to get a 4K still from your trusty DSLR with a FLASH??

The bride and groom DO NOT CARE how you capture their wedding, they just care that you capture the moments as much as possible. That is rule number 1. All else doesn't matter. You are there to capture the memories that shall last them a life time. Blurry motion artifiacts in highly compressed 18:1 RAW footage with no flash to stop the motion, and no ability to correct other than color, sharpening and a little boost here are there is not what I call safe.

Talk to the big wedding photographers, they will all say to you the same thing. You bet your life and carrier on your clients, you better well be worried about getting the right photos, not what gear you're using and how much K you've got their video in... They will 95% of the time get a STANDARD DEF DVD for their video, and their photos get an entire album and blow ups. I think you begin to realize whats the more important thing.

bring 3 camera bodies, and tones of lenses with you, a few remote flash heads and a bunch of cards, batteries and you'll be fine. Leave the Scarlet for when you can repeat action, not for someones wedding which can never be re-done. Light is key, why is everyone so crazy about trying to grab stills from video that isn't lit properly or exposed properly, or have the proper shutter speed to stop motion?

Sorry but sounds ridiculous to me coming from learning from one of the best in the industry near me....
 
Research the job before, have back up camera's DSLR's whatever, and know your limits.

I'm advocating supporting a still's crew, not replacing them, as I think stills and video should be separate. Now the video could provide stills but I think the two, in my style, are very different beasts. One posed and perfect the other a live real moving portrait of the day and it's events.

"Blurry motion artifiacts in highly compressed 18:1 RAW footage with no flash to stop the motion, and no ability to correct other than color, sharpening and a little boost here are there is not what I call safe."

I was not the still photographer and I would please ask you not to assume the quality of my work before seeing it just because it was shot with 18:1.
 
Joseph,
I won't try and teach you to suck eggs at all.. The reason to pull stills for me would be to make the DVD case and DVD menus etc. I work alongside a photographer - not instead of. I always pull several lovely stills from each and every wedding shoot. One or two that make it into the wedding album..

That being said - I have NEVER used any extra light. I just don't need it. Perhaps i've been very lucky, I don't know, but video-fill-light just reeks of 1980's VHS hell...

Now yes, the moment is all that's important and capturing it for the happy couple is intrinsically a given - but I slightly disagree about "equipment." I have ALWAYS been asked what I shoot with, (always by the groom I might add!!) but there are snobs out there. I 've been pushed aside by someone who thought my "camcorder" made me a guest and their brothers shoulder mount VHS "looked" more professional. So 4K already shouts to 'some' people....

Stephen.. I would be very interested in your 18:1 footage, if you have any online. Or just your take on events.. (excuse the pun)

There's also a growing trend for high-school leavers and pop-star-film-star-wannabees to have a film crew follow them around for the day. I sell it as part of a makeover/photoshoot/limo ride glamour day... Tell them your using the same camera that was used to make the Hobbit and their dad's will be very interested.. (ok, so a RED camera then..) A small niche market but still a market and a growing one. Teenage kids with dad's credit card... I love you...!
 
Oh no, never shoot 18:1, ever. It looks terrible. Lowest if ever go is 12:1.


Stephen Matthews said:
I would agree in some aspects of why a DSLR would make sense, battery, media time, and dedicated stills modes. At the wedding I filmed there was not a single mention of my camera's fan despite being there for every moment of the day to quiet dressing rooms, to the ceremony, to the speeches at the reception. Now this would not have been possible if I had not rigorously checked scenarios before the event, how long it would take in a single take before the fan would kick in, how long I can keep it in standby and minimal fan before it needs a shutdown and how long I needs to keep it off, as well as at the event making sure to turn off the camera as often as possible.

Now there are many ways to shoot a wedding, so I understand if it does not fit into some people's business models. If you are a still's and video crew then I understand using multiple cheap dedicated still's camera's with a video mode even supported by another dedicated camcorder style camera.

as to the negatives and my work around...

media: I had a 64gb and a 48gb, but I shot in... 18:1(AHHH!) but despite that I ended up never holding back on what I needed to film(including speech's and full ceremony which I asked for a timing of before and tested fan settings for) I also tested the 18:1 against my GH-1(this was a favor for a friend and I was a guest as well as videographer, money for rentals was non existent) and despite the compression the increase in DR and having red raw files there was no question. (though I brought a fully kitted out hacked GH-1 as a back up, it was not used)

Power: ac adapter, two redvolts and a charger.... (I know even I was crazy nervous on this end) Well plugged whenever it was non intrusive, rotated the batteries on and off the charger when I had the chance throughout the day once again plugin any time I could, and despite my fears never had an issue with power.

weight: I have shot weddings with DSLR's and to be honest I found them to light for proper spontaneous handheld especially considering their rolling shutter. admittedly I had issues on both end with rolling shutter and the pure weight of the camera and holding it throughout the day, that was my mistake didn't take my monopod in an effort to be more slimmed down. though in the finished product content is king and no one cares about the minimal rolling shutter.

Fan: it's all about prep, if prep and info is not given then yes I would worry. If the location is exceedingly hot then yes I would worry. Perhaps it's all about climates here up north in the wedding season which are typically not the warmest.

Now I understand this is by no means your typical wedding scenario and some of my "solutions" would just not work or be accepted my most clients or workflows/business models. just one of many possible realities.

In the end my friends were more than happy with the final product, in fact they were blown away as was anyone else I have been allowed to show at this point(have to wait until after the premire...hehe).

So depending on your style of shooting and the type of content you deliver, a scarlet can work out great, it's all about knowing yours and your cameras limits as well as your clients expectations.

Have a good one!
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Once again, it's specific scenario and the only option I had, I tested against other options and even 18:1 beat them all out. And trust me when I say you have to see it before you jump to conclusions, considering it was my wedding gift and the usual cost is around 200 dollars(at my age and income) I say it worked out just fine.

And please understand I am fully aware of the difference between 6:1 and 18:1, this was the only time I have used 18:1. Normally I only shoot at the lowest possible compression. A hyperdeck shuttle or Ninja would have served much better but would have cost money I was not willing to spend.
 
For those of you who keep saying that nobody will see the benefit of shooting 4K (for now) - I will repeat it for the X-ieth time - You are forgetting stills. This is crucial especially for event like a wedding. Go and try to print out a frame from HD video from an DSLR to even a 12x8 standard print. I have personally printed 5K stills from Scarlet to A1 size and it looked amazing - even after cropping the image to fill the A1 format... Another example - compare side-by-side HD footage from DSLR and 4K Scarlet footage SCALED DOWN from 4K to HD - at an actual HD resolution on a full HD monitor (not your internet 320x240 clip). If You still think that 4K has nothing to offer (even for now) - you are on the wrong forum...

Peter
 
The guys I know that use it for weddings charge more, and also have a dedicated photographer. In fact, charge even more and get a second RED camera. Strangely, the more you charge for weddings, the more work you'll get. I for one will never shoot one, but if I did, I'd go for the higher end budgets. It's down right ugly at the bottom.
 
Just to throw my $.02 in the ring. We shoot weddings exclusively. We own a Scarlet. Our Scarlet is our C camera. I had hoped that it could be our A and B camera when we bought it but I have found it just too high maintenance for that. The day always moves fast enough without having to worry about things like media and batteries. Don't get me wrong, I love the images that the camera produces, but I just can't use it for every bit of the project. I've used plenty of cameras over the years, one thing I have learned, the less I have to focus on the equipment, the better. I don't want to have to focus on how much power I have, I want to focus on getting the shots that I need for the film. There is no point in having top of the line equipment if you are not able to get the correct content. As much as I HATE shooting a 7d it lets me just shoot and get the reactions and emotions of the day without too much worry.

In all honesty, I am looking at getting the C100 for my A and B camera now. It has the power that can last and the cheap media that eases any worry about rationing how much I can shoot. I will keep the Scarlet around of course, as we get into more scripted and promo work I will pull that out. In general, I just don't think a Scarlet is the best camera for EVERY situation, including wedding days.
 
Ben Coleman said:
I just don't think a Scarlet is the best camera for EVERY situation, including wedding days.
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+100,
I shoot a lot of weddings, the only part of the wedding day i shoot with scarlet (sometimes) is taking pictures at the park;
it's B cam, it's on steadicam, footage is gorgeoous and i don't care if the fan will go crazy :)
i am not talking about events in general , but for weddings red wouldn't be my number one choice;
but again, if you know what you're doing, you can shoot a wedding with any camera :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eme984-2AcA
 
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haha, didn't you see the last shot with the huge pelican case? there's at least a little tongue-in-cheek going on... :)
 
paulherrin said:
haha, didn't you see the last shot with the huge pelican case? there's at least a little tongue-in-cheek going on... :)
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Yeah, but he left out the shot of the other huge cases holding the matte-boxes, steadicam, tripods and huge lenses...
In the grand scheme os things a pro camera instead of the iPhone would make next to no difference...

I can't help but laugh... It's sad thou that this is actually a paid-for-service...

Peter
 
Ben Coleman said:
Just to throw my $.02 in the ring. We shoot weddings exclusively. We own a Scarlet. Our Scarlet is our C camera. I had hoped that it could be our A and B camera when we bought it but I have found it just too high maintenance for that. The day always moves fast enough without having to worry about things like media and batteries. Don't get me wrong, I love the images that the camera produces, but I just can't use it for every bit of the project. I've used plenty of cameras over the years, one thing I have learned, the less I have to focus on the equipment, the better. I don't want to have to focus on how much power I have, I want to focus on getting the shots that I need for the film. There is no point in having top of the line equipment if you are not able to get the correct content. As much as I HATE shooting a 7d it lets me just shoot and get the reactions and emotions of the day without too much worry.

In all honesty, I am looking at getting the C100 for my A and B camera now. It has the power that can last and the cheap media that eases any worry about rationing how much I can shoot. I will keep the Scarlet around of course, as we get into more scripted and promo work I will pull that out. In general, I just don't think a Scarlet is the best camera for EVERY situation, including wedding days.
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And thats my exact point right there. The real wedding guys know what I'm talking about. There is too much money and client list on the line to be worrying about a camera. Which is why VDSLR's will always own that ground. Not even for an exclusive video crew would it be worth it for a wedding to shoot RED. Too much data and too much to miss. Even the 100,000 dollar weddings and up you'll se the pros fall back to the VDSLR equipment. I hate VDSLR's but thats what they were invented for in the first place....

The reasons why they even have a video option is because of wedding photographers wanting to shoot a little video while they are doing stills for weddings. Thats what started it all. VDSLR IS the RIGHT tool for the job, because it was literally made for it. The invention of a DSLR being able to take video as well was purely for that client reach. It just so happens that filmmakers thought this was cool to use to make movies as well.
 
Sorry guys. can't disagree more. But thats with the shooting concept and not the Red as i am not an owner yet!
I shoot about 3-4 hours of footage during a normal day. That includes bride prep up to last dance and all the speeches and of course the ceremony. Now assuming i totally replace the Z5 and Ninja with the Scarlet... with my two 128GB cards shooting at 12:1 gives nearly 3 hours.. but I plan to shoot the ceremony and speeches with the Z5 and only do the artistic shallow DoF stuff with the Scarlet. So I can afford to shoot at a better compression ratio. So that deals with the media for me..

Power. 4 revolts equals just about two hours. My 12v PAG belt runs the Arri 16 for over 4 hours on its current draw that is much more than the Scarlet as its a mechanical machine. So on paper its covered about 2:1 standby and recording... and not allowing for RedVolt recharges as some said this might be a hassle!

Now obviously i take heed of the advice and warnings of wedding videographers already shooting RED, but I just can't see how the media and power issues cuts it? Even weight... having shoulder-held a cam for hours waiting for a news event to unfold etc.. you just get used to it,, and probably bigger biceps! Ben, you are shooting weddings as you say, exclusively.. forgetting your worries of power and media, is the footage RED shoots really that good? Does it stand out?

It will be an experiment to start with... I only charge about £1000 or $1500 for a day so I am (as someone said) down at the bottom of the feeding pool- where DVD rules supreme...

thanks for conversation chaps... i enjoy a "hard" discussion and it shows the passion of those involved...

SK
 
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Here's the problem and I hate to admit it, the end film is going to look the same to the couple no matter if was shot on a $1500 7D or a $15000 Scarlet. Pretty shots don't mean anything if the story isn't there to back them up. Yes, I do think the Red shots stand out but I'm the technical guy. The couple really can't tell the difference, they aren't pixel peeping, they aren't looking at the DR, they are not watching it with a technical background, they are watching with their emotions. I love the Red footage, but I'm not going to get a dime more for the film if I shoot 3 Scarlets or 3 DLSR's. It's the sad truth with this industry. That is why there are so many people now shooting weddings because they could afford a cheap camera. I had hoped that maybe I could push the limits with shooting on Red but in the end I realize that it doesn't really make any business sense.

Now with that being said you may wonder why I am even considering a $6000 C100. That is purely for ease of use and mind reasons. The things I hate about DSLRs like XLR inputs, ND filters and form factor are gone on that. I never like using a dual system for audio, one more thing to go wrong. I wish I had built in ND again like I had on my HPX170. I like having everything I need self contained and ready to go. So to buy something like a C100 is for selfish reasons and to reduce my stress on the day. Still doesn't mean I can charge more because I have a more expensive camera. The ONLY way we are able to keep charging more is by becoming better filmmakers. The truth is, no amount of equipment is is going to help with that.

It's not that I want to talk anyone out of getting a Scarlet. I'm just trying to pass along what I have learned over the past year. I love my Scarlet, I love Red as a company too. I will continue to use my Scarlet and hope that someday I will have enough use to be able to go to an Epic. That just isn't in the cards if all I do is weddings.
 
yes sorry to clarify I would not recommend the scarlet for the typical wedding shoot, but I do believe it's possible to use one I think it's up to you and your clients. I would most definitely prefer a c100, c300, or c500, and with regards to image quality I always prefer the highest I can possibly acquire, regardless of the scenario. But on the other hand I also understand that any footage is better than no footage.

Sorry didn't mean to offend, and should have been more clear and concise.

Have a great day and a wonderful new year!
 
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