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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

New project...

While you are patiently waiting for Jim, Elsie:

 
DON'T DO DRUUUUUUGS.

But seriously, 27 stops? Where is it? I don't doubt you but there's a reason why nobody makes it. Is this collusion between chip fabricators? I doubt that, although I suspect that Canon and Nikon colluded for years until Sony came along and blew up the still camera market. Unless Sony too is in on it. But they did say they wanted to be number one, starting with the A100.
 
Patents. Look up my previous posts, an Omron sensor like early last decade, but the tech goes back into the 1990's. It has been stated Red is not interested in various alternative pixel technologies, so I doubt they are interested. Now, I don't know if it was small pixel, but there are other methods.

Now, concerning why companies don't use stuff. Firstly patents. If they don't have a valid license to use an active patented technology in a particular product and way, it doesn't get used. Many hdr schemes are of bad quality. Some require a second frame to be sacrificed. This means you may get double exposure in movement. I advised to back to back short and long exposure with the shutter in between to minimise this (however, there is still read out issue). It is possible to integrate the two exposures in the pixel itself, eliminating any delay readout delay between them. Plus many more hdr technologies. But issues arise, between two exposures, which might not be properly aligned giving unnatural exposure curves (so you align them). Now, your extra stops might still be low, but you get something. The other issue is, that you get color shifting, which is what the Omron technology is good for constricting. I guess this is why Red HDR gets modest (usable stops).

Now, another issue, having active hdr circuits on pixel/chip introduces heat and noise.

Now, Micron went for multislope hdr (multiple exposure) and Sony went for native dynamic range improvements, which Red also goes for I believe, for better quality pixels. Now, 16.5 stop dr native is gorgeous, and lines up with how we see intra scene. 12 stops strain. You will notice in 12 stop film, that bright areas are unnatural, so you adjust to loose somewhere, but You are filming in one range, say under an open tent, and have an outside bright area, the film strains to expose both exposures. 16.5 stops is also going strain, but its going to look 4.5 stops better, which means that one exposure area could look great, or both look better. 4.5 stops is like 4.5 bits, which is basically a dark scenes work of 8 bit sdr. So, 30 stops plus will give you nearly two hdr exposures worth, but that is unnatural in scenes to see both at once without issue. So, their is usually an overlap between the two exposures, so you are probably talking about at least two hdr exposures (the user's eyes adjusting as they look between exposures). However, 16.5-20+ stop wdr exposures should be sufficient in real life to give natural to look at scenes. 16.5 is two low sdr, 20+ means that one exposure can be well populated. Now, your tent, you can have great outside scene, and cozy tent. But flipping the exposure usage, you can get great sdr under tent tarp picture with cozy outside scene exposure. But if you overlap exposure enough you may get very good exposure on both, maybe great. This will mean under the tent will look dim, as you would expect in real life as you are moving the brightest areas under the tent top in line with the dimist areas of the outside scene. Watch The Thin Red Line, shoot up here with extra bright sunshine, even mission impossible 2k.

So, on a quality cinema picture deal, I'm one of the few people that I have heard that would like hdr (you just have to use carefully). Frankly the whole cinema picture quality thing has gone overboard. I mean, I get suitable quality from my old hdr hd (or was that sd) smalcamera sensor credit card still camera that I could use with minimal color grading (sorry guys). Just looking at those low contrast hdr stills was sexy. It just givrs you a warm feeling like the bm pocket does, but warmer, bleaker. A lot of cinema camera stuff I see graded just looks overdone and distracting from the immersion in a wrong way. I mean, I don't want to see more yellow bleak/altered footage. People are so over the top with cinema stuff. I remember once the national news channel had some sort of cinema like camera hooked in studio for a test one day. It was barely watchable, people looked so yellow with burnt out facial features, like a bad 1970's episode of doctor who.

Far out, that hdr smalsensor had something like 70MB/s data rate back early last decade, could have used that to make a camera.

Anyway, there are simply good reasons to avoid various hdr technologies on high quality sensors. Jim would be able to back me up on this.
 
So, I had a look at some of the documentation, although much of it is high end engineering-speak which I cannot understand except by implication and assumption.

You would think that photosites would innately store energy logarithmically, as capacitors (and rechargeable cells) charge logarithmically. Sensors are analogue devices, just like discrete transistors and capacitors, or pretty much all transducers. Even hard drives are analogue (but RAM and SSDs are not as they are made of cells). It's funny how most digital devices are mostly analogue. Does magnetic tape not also store signals logarithmically?

So, 70MB/s for that HDR sensor? Wow. That's roughly 4GB/min or 252GB/hr! Aye carumba. Even UHD on Stan is only like 7GB/hr. 252GB/hr is not a lot if you're shooting 4K at 6:1, however that sensor is not much more than VGA and it's giving all that data.

Here's an idea for free: the RED Monochrome cameras could have a 4K HDR sensor which might give 25+ stops of DR with the equivalent data rate of 8K RGB. That could work, right?
 
Karim D. Ghantous said:
So, I had a look at some of the documentation, although much of it is high end engineering-speak which I cannot understand except by implication and assumption.

You would think that photosites would innately store energy logarithmically, as capacitors (and rechargeable cells) charge logarithmically. Sensors are analogue devices, just like discrete transistors and capacitors, or pretty much all transducers. Even hard drives are analogue (but RAM and SSDs are not as they are made of cells). It's funny how most digital devices are mostly analogue. Does magnetic tape not also store signals logarithmically?

So, 70MB/s for that HDR sensor? Wow. That's roughly 4GB/min or 252GB/hr! Aye carumba. Even UHD on Stan is only like 7GB/hr. 252GB/hr is not a lot if you're shooting 4K at 6:1, however that sensor is not much more than VGA and it's giving all that data.

Here's an idea for free: the RED Monochrome cameras could have a 4K HDR sensor which might give 25+ stops of DR with the equivalent data rate of 8K RGB. That could work, right?
Click to expand...

You have just given me an idea to measure charge. Batteries charge logarithmically due to it being a matter of flow from high to low, as it fulls it slows. This maybe useful, as the time taken for the photon flow charge to move and flow could be used to measure in an unusual way. I'm pretty tied, so I haven't formulated a way to use the affect practically. But as the measurement is in the time domain maybe noise etc could be kept down. But I imagine this has been worked through before, they use it for analogue to digital conversion. I'm in favour of photon/charge counting for ultra dr and low light, and have been proposing this for nearly 13 years, and have a recent link to a sensor technology like that done by some university in the united state.

Now, I referred to another hdr sensor with their own technology that had something like 70MB/s on their data sheet (or was that 35MB/s or 50) but to record HD at 24p 8 bit bayer requires closer to 21MB/s uncompressed. Now, 70MB/s is not the complete story, as a good portion of the frame would be timing and control delays, and integration. So, that 70 might be good for HDp24 8 or 12 bit, and the sensor itself might not be able to deliver fast enough to fill that 'interface' speed. But tantalising 'possibility' it might have. At what quality I don't know, but Interesting it had such a high datarate on the interface (could be just some standard).

Ram and SSD are generally analogue. Flash uses multiple levels of a floating analogue effect, ram usually uses a capacitor. Binary just makes it easier to measure, as the analogue value has to drift a lot to be considered another value, so is more robust. Some memories such as intel/micron, are effectively binary, its there or not, from what I know from prerelease talk.

The Red Monochrome camera (a helium version) probably can do 25 stop used by hdr, it is at least 3.5 stops if good hdr technique I think, but in monochrome maybe it could be more. Jim would know.
 
I'm really curious about this new project Jim has going. I wish he could tell us what he is working on even if a final product may be a year or two down the line.
 
Randall Weatherington said:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/9497380.pdf
Click to expand...

With the dense field camera idea in the back of my mind while reading this article from Redshark news, it occurred to me that slightly curving the dense field idea (having multiple lenses) could replicate an image the same as a curved sensor.

It would be even better if one could bend the dense field camera array for shooting this way, and have it return to flat when one is shooting with the aim of picking out different parts of the image for sharp focus... that is, because getting sharp focus on a portion of the array when pushed further apart or closer together might look strange.
 
Peter Moretti said:
Two guesses:

1. Some type of quantum computer or device.

2. A VR type display system that does not use special or uncomfortable glasses.
Click to expand...

I just want to say that I said this almost exactly a year ago. :yesnod:
 
Also realise, elsewhere, I said I hope he is not going to release the new display system I am planning to do, for some time.
 
Anyone else can't move beyond page 103 in this thread, even when there seem to be 114 right now?
The same in the "Hint" thread, can't go beyond page 9 of 10...

Is the system broken, or does anyone have an explaination?


Update:
Strange - after leaving this comment, the page count fall back to 103 instead of 114.
Might be that some comments have been deleted, so there number of pages decreased, and the database wasn't quite right?

Anyhow, we are all waiting for Jim & Co now.
 
This thread is acting strangely on my computer. "New Posts" show some are being posted today, yet when I click on it, page 103 is as far forward as I can go. My post 1021 is at the top of the page so I'm getting that Twilight Zone feeling about this thread.

P.S. If anyone can read this post, please say so... if no one does, I will definitely feel like I am being Rod Serling-ed.
 
Lol, your the second person to say that to me today. Strange.
 
Hey Axel!

Yup ditto.

I'm guessing some of the "Musings" were not a million miles away from what IS and will be lol.

Let's face it sometimes its not what is being said but WHO is saying it that brings an extra level of excitement and credibility.

I am wondering if RED "Community" are going to "Get it" on first pass, and HOW JJ and Jared et al. are going to explain what it is and why it is significant.

I think the "Go big or go home" and "Watch Racing Extinction" really stuck in my mind vis a vie needs and requirements.


Any technological gap that has been bridged by another party is always super helpful so one does not have to pay fortunes to bridge those gaps to make a new technological "Eco system" viable for a wider user base.

As usual we "Project" our "wants" and dreams onto these mysterious proclamations and announcements; but my spidey senses tell me this one is going to be super relevant to what we do.

Calm and relaxed we see if one of our "Ships" comes in. :-) And if not, no biggie, we make it happen no matter what, one way or another.
 
True. But maybe we can predict what it is from the posts that went missing?

But seriously, reading these threads are a brain drain , as people project all sorts of things. Like: 'Maybe it is an environmental training holiday to his Jurrassic park Island resort' or something else. I'm more interested is what it actually is, or could be.
 
OK guys, pay up, its a phone (and we guessed it may have 3D, but is holographic). :smiley:
 
Wayne Morellini said:
Have you seen the patents. With redray or redcode, helium sensor, it would be the only phone to buy for a camera, and the ultimate pocket cinema camera, if you font put in a sim card. The sakes from phone, stills, cinema, video, provideo could be fantastic, because there is basically nothing else out there of this level in many of the markets at this low price level. A fullhd pocket. Of course, there is money to be made licensing the codecs for normal phones if you have the chipset that can do it (and no all about it needs specialist hardware, as apart from a specialist licensed circuite I'm chipsets available to any manufacturer, I am far from convinced you could not do a GPU version, if not for 6k, but for 2k-4k. So one knockout phone, and lesser mobiles with just the video codec support. But them again, I'm a pretty put there business man.
Click to expand...

Good call on it being a phone Wayne.
 
Wayne Morellini said:
If this a camera phone, he is likely working with at lest a chipset manufacturer, if not a phone manufacturer it is too difficult to get the market placement and penetration to turn over enough units to lower the cost per unit.
Click to expand...

garble:@^*(garbeledy#*{@gunk!
 
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