New project...

[Elsie N]

Around what feels like 6 months ago, release was imminent and we were to tell friends and family to bring out the credit cards.

Imminent in the most REDish of interpretations.

Yeah, but to be fair, Jim did come back on here and tell us in so many words that they had hit a wall. Then he told us, again in so many words, that they had breeched the wall.

Probably knowing he would hear comments about being late is one reason he is currently staying silent until i's are dotted and t's are crossed.

Pretty sure he's not just trying to build tension... I think he wants this as much or more (since he knows what it is) than we all do. '-)

Just my guess.

 

[Daniel Roman]

Can wait to know what it is.
cheers

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Yeah...Pretty sure he's not just trying to build tension...

Ohh, no, not tension:

:beatdeadhorse5::cuss::smash::emote_headwall::mad5::sarcasm::cheers2::emote_happyhappy::emote_head_explode::gun::cursing::nonod::emote_whack::torsten_violent-smi:badputer: :smiley:

Just tell us it's not going to.be before a certain date, so we can start waiting after that date?

Thanks.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Could Jim & Team have been trying to model light propagation like a weather system ... but in real time.

Each viewer could be a simulated 'position' (or port) into a stream of multi order differential equations.

R3D could be complimented by a new file format called R4D..

AJ

Multi order differential equation based, weather system like light propagation ?

 

[Eric Lange]

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/9497380.pdf

@Randal Nice find!

The device looks like a lot of fun! I wonder what the images/image quality and characteristics are? Nice patent diagrams (for a change) LOL. One of the diagrams shows the device being used taking a picture of a lion.... So maybe the "Racing Extinction" connection with new recording technology. Definitive imagery of declining species or even the last individual of a species (idea perhaps). Georeferenced imagery with position and orientation data with this type "imager" could be great for base line condition reports for habitat. For all that to hang together and work you still need a "Master Database" that somewhat eclipses Google Earth etc. And Second to that you still need an archival storage medium... Hence daughter of RedRay Perhaps? One cannot operate successfully without the other in terms of archival data formats and various long term affordable management strategies.

It's going to take me two weeks to find the time to actually read through the specification properly and all its most of the relevant citations and relevant prior art. Probably Jannard/Team Jannard will make a formal announcement before anyone can get a "handle" on the specification.

I have to admit looks really nice and seems to have a good "Vibe or "Aura" about the will and its intended application and potential. A nice departure from the insular nature of the Film Industry and cut-throat nature of notions of "Market share" in the commercial camera industry.

[Looks like a cool new "Ship" and venture. Good luck to all who sale in her].

 

[Antony Newman]

If R3D wavelet compression is considered a transformation into the frequency domain, then reconstruction could be considered superposition of a series of 'waves' in two dimensional (X,Y) screen space.

With a new device with multiple high resolution sensors with neighboring angular overlap, it would (with some number crunching) possible to convert all the lens data into three dimensional depth map (X,Y,Z) for each individual frame (something like this):

I was hypothesizing that with (X,Y,Z & Time), that vast amount of data collected could be converted into a 4 dimensional wavelet set (R4D).

If a 3d surface moved in absolute space, and this could be described in Time, I would speculate that:
+) Compression ratio could be incredible
+) Data would be in a form that would be useful for AI Vision & VFX & Real time AR
+) Multiple 'lightfield' viewports could be concurrently created as the R4D stream was simulated from T=0.

AJ

Multi order differential equation based, weather system like light propagation ?

 

[Eric Lange]

If R3D wavelet compression is considered a transformation into the frequency domain, then reconstruction could be considered superposition of a series of 'waves' in two dimensional (X,Y) screen space.

With a new device with multiple high resolution sensors with neighboring angular overlap, it would (with some number crunching) possible to convert all the lens data into three dimensional depth map (X,Y,Z) for each individual frame (something like this):

I was hypothesizing that with (X,Y,Z & Time), that vast amount of data collected could be converted into a 4 dimensional wavelet set (R4D).

If a 3d surface moved in absolute space, and this could be described in Time, I would speculate that:
+) Compression ratio could be incredible
+) Data would be in a form that would be useful for AI Vision & VFX & Real time AR
+) Multiple 'lightfield' viewports could be concurrently created as the R4D stream was simulated from T=0.

AJ

That's a really knarly and noisy way to acquire 3d data... BUT with multiple such camera stations at more spatially desirable locations then much better 3d results could be achieved. Personally I think the technology is destined for very different "Spheres" of application, where never the less your travelling "shutter bug" can "save the planet".

The "Time" aspect has more to do with "base line" documentation/recording of habitats and species and other important environments and sites. So for example the comparison of photographic shots of the great barrier reef taken in the 1960s vs. now... revealing massive devastation over a matter of decades (I think that was featured in "Racing Extinction"). So remember Jannard used the word "Project" (rather than "product" or system, and hopes that he (paraphrase) ["Lives long enough ..."], basically to see it come to fruition. So I am imagining (with fragmentary "Evidence" ) that many shooters travel all over the world over a period of decades to start to piece together (like a 3d mosaic) the base line record of EARTH. "Go BIG ... or go home". So only after a period of time i.e. decades you start to see a difference in changing environments and this builds towards an archive that may span a century at least. A great legacy (for sure). [Similar principals have been applied to the recording of historic monuments and archaeological sites... However in this case the PLANET and its ecosystems are more "pressing" perhaps? ].

I think another interesting feature of the invention / cited patent is that it may have the advantage over other camera systems in that it requires virtually no skill at all to operate... Other than having a good eye and being at the right place at the right time, and yet record a "scene" to a very deep / almost complete level. One could argue that is the purest expression of "photography" where the apparatus is no longer an issue. Still... need to see imagery... And notions of quality. Never the less I'm pretty sure the "Demo-reel" will be heart stoppingling awesome and will be marketed to touch the deepest emotional levels and aspirations of our hearts and souls. (As usual).

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Antony, I'm really a bit out of it to read your explanation above, but I have been meaning to find out how 5D or 6D wavelet compression works the image?

 

[M.Halsell]

Eric L. very well presented theorem or axiom depending on POV. Seriously, nice infield hit. I will put your post away for safe keeping, until the actual reveal.

 

[Antony Newman]

Eric,

Well thought out

A 'history' recorder, with the simplicity of a polarioid.

AJ

 

[Eric Lange]

Eric,

Well thought out

A 'history' recorder, with the simplicity of a polarioid.

AJ

Maybe, AND spatially referenced too ... So time, space, travel... etc.

The key thing in such an approach is create a base "Condition report" of the planet, its habitats and ecosystems, and then as time goes by, decade on decade with such recordings you start to build up a picture for the rate of change/rate of destruction to these environments and species (both the natural environment as well as the human "effect" on the planet and the natural world...) This is not something that can be achieved only by ariel and satellite imagery. Terrestrial / human ground based(and drone based) imagery of the kind that could be generated by such a "camera" could be very excellent indeed. That way it is theoretically possible to prioritize which environments are at high risk. A sort of environmental and species based triage. Such data is really difficult to amass and collect by conventional or current means so a veritable army of "Recorders" willing to go to very remote or even hostile non-obvious locations would be very valuable indeed. But such data can only be made valuable or useful if it hangs together on a very large and accessible spatially and temporally referenced 3d data base/interface... (i.e. Google Earth Jannard style) And so on. Seems like the camera in the cited patent could be a good tool for the job (as well as integrating other more conventional RED tech). But in any case technologically there would be some great "Spin offs" that would certainly benefit the Cinematic and data intensive visual community as well as the need for retroactive archiving of older materials on new archive formats. (Perhaps)?


But if that's not what's being done it should probably be done anyway, and Jannard is not someone to leave a big interesting "Hole" in the market place or a really cool and worthwhile project just sitting there, especially for the types of themes and causes he seems enthusiastic about. I have never met the man but I think people forget that (as it seems to me) that his primary passion and drive is what the photographic image can do (in service of "Mankind" if you will). Just read his tag line at the bottom of his posts. Some folks seems to look at things as whatever may be next is a subset of RED or Cinemagraphic craft/relevant tech, but my "Vibe" is that whatever Jannard may be doing next is essentially a very big and ambitious super set of all that. you know... BIGGER . There also might be a way to upload data from very remote locations too? I wonder? That seems to be something that is pre-occupying various socially conscious billionaires these days as well ;-). All to the good!

 

[Filip Orlandic]

@Randal Nice find!

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?151687-RED-Dense-field-imaging!

 

[Eric Lange]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?151687-RED-Dense-field-imaging!

I have to admit I was rather dismissive of the idea of a "Light field" camera coming from Jim Jannard. Basically professional film makers and cinematographers are not going to switch to light field cameras on mass over night. That will never happen. BUT a new application area i.e. new project seems like a good bet. If you watch "Racing Extinction" its really clear early on in the movie/documentary that there are many instances where you have ONLY one opportunity to get the shot... So might as well have a device that can produce a very rich and comprehensive record of a given subject. I.e. you are in the jungles of Belize somewhere (benignly) stalking the near last of a particular species and it comes into "frame" you have ONE chance to get the shot or sequence. [Not like the film business where you can still re-shoot a lot of stuff (if stuff really fouls up), even on location or before the sets are axed and smashed up on the back lot]. Typically a lot of naturalists, archaeologists, ecologists, geologist, whatever-ists are not necessarily quick on the draw nor are they specialist and very experienced photographers (some ARE... but not all). So I think the "Dense Field Jannard Camera" could represent a really good solution to that problem. I think the device is inspired by the need to have very comprehensive or near definitive record of something that requires a low level of expertise to generate very decent and acceptible results. I am interested in the kinematic aspect that not only can you record (let's say) an animal as a light field "still" but you also you get to see how it moves or get a sense of its general dynamic character and aspect rendered in various ways. [As an aside I think (oddly) or ironically the camera has a lot of applications for a new type of portraiture as well... Might be very popular].

Overall its 25% the device and 75% the overall scheme (I think/ perhaps?). i.e. a big VR database of EARTH that supports all possible data types be they stills, dynamic, light field, newer 3d formats ;-), and crucially with a multi temporal slider (in the interface)... I.e. you can step through time... from hours to decades and one day centuries. The photographic possibilities are really endless as especially with light as that is always going to be different from minute to minute and time of year. I think also with a comprehensive "Jannard" EARTH database and interface you can see what needs to be recorded. So the most obvious sites, locations and habitats will be recorded first (so there will be massive redundancy apart from the "BEST" records perhaps (I can see a lot of on-line competition there)) but it will also make clear areas on Earth that have virtually no records at all. At the back of my mind I'm wondering what the "Rewards" are for going to more distant and inaccessible locations would be?

In truth, even just focusing on the bio-diversity theme, a substantial number of species will go extinct even before a human being even has the chance to take the first picture/record of such an organism; to record its existence before it vanishes for ever. The race is on.


I suspect that Jim Jannard in his various dealings and travels over recent years has come into contact with a lot of "Earth Minded " folks not just conservationists and environmentalist but the likes of JPL and NASA. That really changes your perspective on things... (it did for me 20 years ago), and really brings to light the power and utility of the (photographic) image once you provide the correct framework and context for all imagery. [I think this is what Jim may be aiming for... but maybe I am 100% wrong/ way off base LOL]. Never the less I suspect there are a lot of "Spin off" benefits that as Jannard says will (paraphrase). "Change the way we do things" for more conventional applications... And "Said project" will need a veritable army of shooter/recorders... When Jim says (paraphrase) 'I'm counting on you [All].

If such a scheme is being devised and put into action then probably a trust or foundation would have to be put in place to maintain "Perpetuity" of such project.

Anyway I'm WAAAAAAY out on a limb here... back to doing something productive ... LOL.

 

[Justin Kirchhoff]

I have to admit I was rather dismissive of the idea of a "Light field" camera coming from Jim Jannard. Basically professional film makers and cinematographers are not going to switch to light field cameras on mass over night. That will never happen.

Just like 4K for the masses would never happen. Just like how the RED One was vaporware. Eh.

 

[Eric Lange]

Just like 4K for the masses would never happen. Just like how the RED One was vaporware. Eh.

He he...

No.



The film industry just doesn't 'Think" that way in terms of how it adopts technology... Light field is a nice/niche application (with regards to the film industry (at best)).

I have always been an advocate for the highest res imagery, still and dynamic... And I never thought that RED One was ever vaporware... There are many thousands of people that share my view / similar sentiment. Back then or now.

Personally I would not mix up previous scuffles that Jim Jannard may or may not have had from certain (alleged... seemingly "precious") quarters of the Cinematic community and in some instances (some may claim) have been blown out of all proportion.

I think that's why maybe Jannard is looking to fresher and more meaningful vistas. Perhaps?

Believe it or not there are bigger and better things than the film industry or even the "Commercial" camera industry? What ever that means now in the "Snapchat" era?

@Justin K... You are very welcome to champion light field technology for cinematic applications... (don't let anybody stop or influence you from that if that is your passion). But I would also say read through the patent specification and look at the diagrams. The thing that is immediately conspicuous is that the device is NOT mounted on a tripod or dolly or crane or anything else of that nature. It shows a guy/bloke holding something that looks like a small drinks tray (tilted 90 degrees forward) with two grab handles on each side; also showing captured imagery of a lion + various relevant interface elements on the back side. Doesn't scream immediate cinematic application at the get go, but that does not mean that the technology being used in other fields after 20 years or so does not find more widespread use in different mainstream media /deliverables in the future... Whatever those may be? Your guess is as good mine or anyone else's .

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I remember doing calculations to film every spot on earth from at least 8 angles. A meter, even 10 cm is reasonable resolution for practical purposes. But big security implications when you go to centimeter or millimeters. You can locate many people on the planet. Even if they hide their identity my methods can be used to construct body and face, and identify people by their walk and how they hold themselves, which is now out there (pretty sure that was one I was proposing) and body heat signature. From what I have heard (not what is reported) they could read newspaper headings when I was in primary school gems spy planes, still in primary school, I saw Nasa photos of ribits on the Skylab soacevstation, and friends of mine who have been involved with intelligence operations havebteported similar (think multiple sources). All crime scene footage can be opened up by court order. So, how much processing power, codec and storage is needed for that.

However, my musing interest, has been sparked by reports of video evidence of the Tasmanian Tiger. Such a system could identify rare species. I used to go to school with a guy that said he had seen a Tasmanian Tiger in Cape Tribulation, or the Daintree. It is a vast wilderness area up there bigger than Tasmania or England, with a number of strange creatures reported (such as giant reptiles). Up there has more similarities to the Amazon than to Tasmania. However, I'd love to run into a news crew up town doing on the spot topical interviews and tell them about this guys story, as I suspect it could just maybe, be made up, and wouldn't mind dropping him in it.

So that is around 12 million pixels across. So that is around 144 terrabyte at least per image, minus the area outside the sphere. Much of the time at the 1 meter resolution, the image is going to be relatively static, making dir great compression once you remove waves and the waving plant life in the image. However, you could just concentrate on places of interest, that might be less than 10% the surface area of the planet much of the time,even 1%. So thousands to one compression+, when you take into consideration the light from the sun and moon. Now, what is going to handle that, mqdca.

 

[Justin Kirchhoff]

He he...

No.



The film industry just doesn't 'Think" that way in terms of how it adopts technology... Light field is a nice/niche application (with regards to the film industry (at best)).

I have always been an advocate for the highest res imagery, still and dynamic... And I never thought that RED One was ever vaporware... There are many thousands of people that share my view / similar sentiment. Back then or now.

Personally I would not mix up previous scuffles that Jim Jannard may or may not have had from certain (alleged... seemingly "precious") quarters of the Cinematic community and in some instances (some may claim) have been blown out of all proportion.

I think that's why maybe Jannard is looking to fresher and more meaningful vistas. Perhaps?

Believe it or not there are bigger and better things than the film industry or even the "Commercial" camera industry? What ever that means now in the "Snapchat" era?

@Justin K... You are very welcome to champion light field technology for cinematic applications... (don't let anybody stop or influence you from that if that is your passion). But I would also say read through the patent specification and look at the diagrams. The thing that is immediately conspicuous is that the device is NOT mounted on a tripod or dolly or crane or anything else of that nature. It shows a guy/bloke holding something that looks like a small drinks tray (tilted 90 degrees forward) with two grab handles on each side; also showing captured imagery of a lion + various relevant interface elements on the back side. Doesn't scream immediate cinematic application at the get go, but that does not mean that the technology being used in other fields after 20 years or so does not find more widespread use in different mainstream media /deliverables in the future... Whatever those may be? Your guess is as good mine or anyone else's .

Yeah, I was more commenting on your quote about how people don't switch to technologies overnight. I agree on that, however, once the ball gets rolling...

And I haven't seen the recent Patent specifications. So that further displays that I was not commenting on what Jim has been working on.

 

[Elsie N]

Light Field vs conventional camera is starting to sound like Digital vs Film... and we all know how that turned out.

IF a Light Field video camera is what Jim is about I suspect it will play out much like 1080p vs 4k... and we all know how that is turning out.

The thing is, things are turning over at a much faster rate than ever before so I expect the RED One-like first release of a camera as described in the patent filing posted here to be embraced by those who are familiar with the tech and can grasp any potential while the more cautious hold back until it is proven.

Once that happens, and it may take a few years to convince skeptics just like it took at least that long to get a 4k consensus, but once that happens RED has once again led the way.

Just thinking out loud: I'm wondering if the .RED codec will somehow be utilized to keep the enormous file sizes down.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

The patent is not really light field as in the patented technology, but the more conventional multi can technology, that doesn't require an complex sensor, and can easily be made big.

When I was coming up with things in the 90's I thought of camera arrays to replace a number of camera actions and post processing. If you look around here years back you see I propose a very large sensor area, maybe even multiple sensor like this, for post.

 

[Elsie N]

The patent is not really light field as in the patented technology, but the more conventional multi can technology, that doesn't require an complex sensor, and can easily be made big.

When I was coming up with things in the 90's I thought of camera arrays to replace a number of camera actions and post processing. If you look around here years back you see I propose a very large sensor area, maybe even multiple sensor like this, for post.

You're right Wayne... they actually call it dense field IIRC.