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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

New pricing...

I have been in this industry for 10 years now, it is my only source of income, it is my DAY JOB. I appreciate others who have created a career in doing something that they love. If you can't pay the bills, then you have to find ways to improve yourself or your equipment in order to continue doing what you love. I don't think anybody on here is in this business solely to make money, even RED as a company is founded by a man that loves the magic of photography and cinematography. We make money doing what we love and there is nothing wrong with that at all.
That being said, I can't think of a company that has better protected their existing customers than has RED. I bought a red one in 2009 and now November of 2012, I am getting a $17,000 credit towards my Epic (which should have been here yesterday btw, I got everything but the Epic Chasis :-), but that's another story).
I have bought many cameras over the years from company's such as sony, panasonic and Canon. All of the cameras I bought were undercut by a slightly upgraded new camera shortly thereafter, greatly reducing my resale value of my current camera. I didn't complain then, because that is what technology does, it gets cheaper and better, every 6 months. That will never change, only speed up. The fact that the Epic and Scarlet have an upgrade path makes them valuable despite a price reduction, because that means that I will not be selling an obsolete camera in order to pay for a current one. I think too many people get up in arms over these things. If you are good at what you do, you'll continue to stay in business. If not, someone else will gladly take your place, especially in this inudstry. It's what we have all chosen to do, and being limber and progressive is part of the job.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
Sorry but many other pro companies are careful about price cuts and that makes people feel safe buying their gear as reasonable investments likely to be amortize-able. K5600, Tiffen Steadicam, Arri.... The list is long. This builds trust. Yes digital cameras lose valeu over time, but not really drastic amounts literally overnight. It's gradual.

People here protesting my concerns are not thinking of this from a business standpoint - but from a passionate hobbiest standpoint. If Red wants to aim only at hobbiests making an out-of-pocket feature, then a sudden severe price drop is that way to go. If they want to keep pros (i.e. people making a living from their gear) feeling safe buying their stuff then they have to be careful and be reasonable.

You can say this is selfish or whatever you like, but it is common sense.

If anyone expects me to feel sorry for someone on this forum because they can "only" afford a Scarlet and not an Epic think of how insane that sounds. A Scarlet is a GREAT camera. You can totally make an AWESOME movie with it. No one should ever feel sorry for a filmmaker with a Scarlet or a used MX Red One at their disposal. The camera is certainly not what will hold them back.
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Elsie N said:
I think you brand Independent film makers using too hot an iron. We are not hobbyists with no business sense. There is a reason we are called Independent. It is because we do not want to give up total control of our projects to someone (maybe someone like you) who are bottom dollar oriented. There's a reason some of this Utoob crap is popular and that is because it resonates. Independent movie makers DO want to make money, but we also want to SOS, that is, save our souls while doing it. So consider that while you are looking down on us perhaps with scorn, we may just be above you looking down on you, shaking our heads in sorrow for you which probably isn't justified either.

And when you get to the crux of it, an Indie is a CEO, CFO, Chief Scrounger, Casting Director, grip, cameraman, DOP, editor... maybe only a few can master all facets but for the most part, a well-rounded diversely talented group of individuals. Hobbyist? That's someone who puts together model airplane kits.
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Rob - Elsie said most of what I'd respond with above. But the one thing that you keep saying that is getting a little tiring is accusing others as being "hobbyists" becuase they don't agree with you. I can't speak for others but let's talk aboyut real "facts" -

Things I DON'T have:

1) A trust fund
2) Rich parents - my father held two jobs to pay the bills; he died when I was 18 and my mother lived on Social Security and part time jobs cleaning peoples houses. My mother died several years ago.
3) Inherited money - see #3 above
4) A "day" job - I am in this all the way, just as you are. My business model is different than yours but no less profit oriented

Things I DO have:

1) A degree in Economics - I put myself through college (a very good, expensive private liberal arts college).
2) Ten years experience in the investment business; corporate finance, financial planning, investment management. First with a major Wall Street firm, then with a small boutique.
3) An additional 25 years in various business management and marketing positions ranging from small entrepreneurial efforts to full responsibility for companies and projects with revenues and budgets well into 8 figures.
4) Two mortgages, two sets of college student loans for my kids, a PGE bill, etc., and, just to make it interesting, two hungry Beagles!.

Now, Rob, we can have this discussion about what I believe was a poor business choice on your part; to rely on income from a rapidly depreciating asset, but it would be appreciated if you would leave the arguments to the relevant ones and stop trying to pump up your own business expertise with claims that others don't know what you know and are mere hobbyists, anti-capitlism, rich kids, or clueless idiots with no background in business. So please STFU (you figure it out) about the hobbyist bullshit!

When I ordered my Scarlet last November, I figured it would be state-of-the-art in it's price range for maybe a year because I didn't see anyone else offering RAW capability in that time frame. At the same time, I assumed RED itself would cannibalize it within a year so as not to get upstaged in the marketplace. By the time I received my camera in February, I already knew the clock was ticking and that I only had maybe 9 months left in my assumed year. IF I had wanted to rent my camera, I would have had to understand that, at best, I had 9 months left to get market rates. My business model doesn't include rental but that same assumption does pervade the way I look at this "investment." I knew that much of rest of my kit would stay relevant and my transition to the future would start with a brain replacement (the camera, not mine lol) and so on. I am not a genius, I just made a better assumption than you did. And, if RED had decided to go to a new form of recording media at a lower price, yeah - I'd have been "overcharged" for my REDmags but I'd still welcome the price reduction. Oh, wait - they DID do that. Haha - and my "premium priced" REDmags still work, just like my Scarlet and your Epic still work.

You don't have to look to me as the epitome of businees success, because I don't claim to be. But I think a certain Mr. Jannard has proven himself by taking one company from the trunk of his car to a multi-billion dollar valuation and seems to be doing just fine with his second effort. I don't speak for Jim but he has made his case clear and I understand that he wants to keep RED a leader and relevant on all fronts; marketing (which includes pricing) is a big part of that. He seems to believe that a price reduction is good for all parties.

One can only hope for your sake that you don't count on the next high tech investment to provide consistent rental income for you for 1.5 years, an eternity these days. :smiley:
 
Terry I don't think you are being fair to Rob and a bit disrespectful too. I don't agree with his argument but I respect it. Just looking at the production you are involved in from a brief search online [LinkedIn, Scary Cow etc] it seems obvious you are not depending on income from your Scarlet. I'm sure you work very hard to make a living with all the things you do but the genre of your work online would be described as hobbyist films catering to hobbyist clients. [No network or distribution associations]. The film & TV production business is very different. Very competitive.
 
Ash Worth said:
Terry I don't think you are being fair to Rob and a bit disrespectful too. I don't agree with his argument but I respect it. Just looking at the production you are involved in from a brief search online [LinkedIn, Scary Cow etc] it seems obvious you are not depending on income from your Scarlet. I'm sure you work very hard to make a living with all the things you do but the genre of your work online would be described as hobbyist films catering to hobbyist clients. [No network or distribution associations]. The film & TV production business is very different. Very competitive.
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No - I have been very respectful of Rob's abilities. I have no clue about his skill level, but I assume he is quite good. I just feel he has made a questionable assumption and is now lobbying RED to fix it for him. The issue is not who is the more skilled DP/cinematographer/filmmaker; it may very well be him. He should also realize that there are probably less skilled DPs (etc) making more money than he is and some that are more skilled making less money than he is, simply by the choices they make in approaching their business. I am arguing a simple point; that it makes no sense for RED to artificially hold prices up, against their own best interests, in order to protect him from himself. I respect his right to make his argument, I just don't think his argument has merit.

Although my involvement in the business is not the issue - aside from his annoying claim that people who disagree with him must be hobbyists - I have a different take on the future of this business and have no interest in playing the game of day rates and competing based on whose camera is bigger. If you are well-established in the Hollywood film scene, then you have something to protect. I won't ever be in that crowd (nor do I want to be) so I can approach what I do differently. Rob's way is Rob's way - that's cool. I just don't think his pitch for keeping RED pricing artificially high holds water or should go unchallenged.
 
Stripped from complete human communicative elements, debate based on written type of communication has a tendency to lead to misinterpretations, motivating or accentuating negative connotations between debate participants with different views on the matter.
 
Ash Worth said:
I agree with you Terry completely, just not the tone of the post.
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And you don't think a persistent demeaning of someone's professional aspirations and activities deserves a response? I let it slide on several posts. Finally, I thought it needed a response.
 
In five hours we'll all have facts to base a discussion around. Until then, nothing has happened. We know a reduction is coming. Most assume it is significant, but until that price is set in stone, why take this into personal territory. People have different business models. Perhaps some will take a hit. The announcement at 5 will bring facts to the table and then we can all assess what impact it has. Maybe Jim will have a change of heart and raise prices. :-)
 
If Sony hasn't announced by then, will Jim counter with a postponement? I think... maybe.
 
I think most interesting will be if the price will be lower than before the price raise in January 2012. Seems many forgot that this has happend too, in the past.

Then it will be interesting if the new price is even less than those stage X packages, especially stage 2.

Not that it makes anything different for sales, its just changing the resale value of goods that some might not have used as much as anticipated. Selling off an rarely used EPIC will become less attractive, so does renting bodies. But bodies are just a minimal part of the total package, who cares?

And will the new price only affect RED EPIC, SCARLET or also RED ONE?

Imagine, RED ONE currently sells for 25,000 - thats more than 42% more that it originally started with (17,500). Ok, now it has M-X sensor, but given technological advancement, that should have come for free over the years. Instead the price raised significantly.

So if RED lowers the price for RED ONE by 30% we are "just" were everything began... (with an updated sensor and maybe some boards, of course).

I wonder if any RED ONEs have been sold recently at all?

It will be a funny evening, pretty much like watching a movie with an unknown end ;-)

Cheers,
Axel
 
Axel Mertes said:
I think most interesting will be if the price will be lower than before the price raise in January 2012. Seems many forgot that this has happend too, in the past.

Then it will be interesting if the new price is even less than those stage X packages, especially stage 2.

Not that it makes anything different for sales, its just changing the resale value of goods that some might not have used as much as anticipated. Selling off an rarely used EPIC will become less attractive, so does renting bodies. But bodies are just a minimal part of the total package, who cares?

And will the new price only affect RED EPIC, SCARLET or also RED ONE?

Imagine, RED ONE currently sells for 25,000 - thats more than 42% more that it originally started with (17,500). Ok, now it has M-X sensor, but given technological advancement, that should have come for free over the years. Instead the price raised significantly.

So if RED lowers the price for RED ONE by 30% we are "just" were everything began... (with an updated sensor and maybe some boards, of course).

I wonder if any RED ONEs have been sold recently at all?

It will be a funny evening, pretty much like watching a movie with an unknown end ;-)

Cheers,
Axel
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You bring up a very interesting point, the stage 2/3 cameras were sold in the 10-20k range & not just the body!
 
Popcorn-02-Stephen-Colbert.gif
 
LOL, Kemalettin
 
hold on a second, i seem to recall almost a year to the day sitting here in front of my computer waiting to see a "big announcement"..... i think i am onto Red, and am going to block out the next 5 novembers on my calendar as Red Announcement Month. just as a pre-emptive measure.
 
+1 for waiting 2 more days! Nov 3rd or bust lol!
 
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