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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

New pricing...

Rob - you seem to be insisting that anyone who second guesses your strategy to invest in tech equipment and expect to make a certain return that you are, apparently not now expecting to make, is against the profit motive. Capitalism is good, profit is good, making money is good. Feeding your family... priceless. But we are taking about two different things here. Some of us are taking issue with the fact that you seem to be blaming RED's approach to making money for themselves (and their workers' families) as somehow infringing upon you. It's not personal, it's business. RED's business. And the price at which they believe they can optimize their business model is their decision. There seems to be pretty much support for it here so it doesn't look like the crowds are running for the door quite yet. You made a choice to go with RED. You may change your mind going forward; that's your business. I happen to believe that a much less expensive Epic will serve RED well while also helping, not hurting, its current customers. You obviously disagree but you seem to be on such a rampage as to why a deep price cut for Epic is somehow dishonorable. I'll be honest, I just don't get your argument at all other than from the POV that your are bitter at having made what you are worried is going to be a "bad" business decision. I don't understand the "macro" argument that suggest lower prices for the buyer, coupled with a healthy profit for the seller, are an all round bad deal. :huh:
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Rob - you seem to be insisting that anyone who second guesses your strategy to invest in tech equipment and expect to make a certain return that you are, apparently not now expecting to make, is against the profit motive. Capitalism is good, profit is good, making money is good. Feeding your family... priceless. But we are taking about two different things here. Some of us are taking issue with the fact that you seem to be blaming RED's approach to making money for themselves (and their workers' families) as somehow infringing upon you. It's not personal, it's business. RED's business. And the price at which they believe they can optimize their business model is their decision. There seems to be pretty much support for it here so it doesn't look like the crowds are running for the door quite yet. You made a choice to go with RED. You may change your mind going forward; that's your business. I happen to believe that a much less expensive Epic will serve RED well while also helping, not hurting, its current customers. You obviously disagree but you seem to be on such a rampage as to why a deep price cut for Epic is somehow dishonorable. I'll be honest, I just don't get your argument at all other than from the POV that your are bitter at having made what you are worried is going to be a "bad" business decision. I don't understand the "macro" argument that suggest lower prices for the buyer, coupled with a healthy profit for the seller, are an all round bad deal. :huh:
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Sorry but many other pro companies are careful about price cuts and that makes people feel safe buying their gear as reasonable investments likely to be amortize-able. K5600, Tiffen Steadicam, Arri.... The list is long. This builds trust. Yes digital cameras lose valeu over time, but not really drastic amounts literally overnight. It's gradual.

People here protesting my concerns are not thinking of this from a business standpoint - but from a passionate hobbiest standpoint. If Red wants to aim only at hobbiests making an out-of-pocket feature, then a sudden severe price drop is that way to go. If they want to keep pros (i.e. people making a living from their gear) feeling safe buying their stuff then they have to be careful and be reasonable.

You can say this is selfish or whatever you like, but it is common sense.

If anyone expects me to feel sorry for someone on this forum because they can "only" afford a Scarlet and not an Epic think of how insane that sounds. A Scarlet is a GREAT camera. You can totally make an AWESOME movie with it. No one should ever feel sorry for a filmmaker with a Scarlet or a used MX Red One at their disposal. The camera is certainly not what will hold them back.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
If anyone expects me to feel sorry for someone on this forum because they can "only" afford a Scarlet and not an Epic think of how insane that sounds. A Scarlet is a GREAT camera. You can totally make an AWESOME movie with it. No one should ever feel sorry for a filmmaker with a Scarlet or a used MX Red One at their disposal. The camera is certainly not what will hold them back.
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But Rob, wouldnt the reverse be true? Should anyone feel sorry for companies that treat the cameras as a commodity who now realise that the monitary value of a Scarlet and Epic has lowered?
 
chommavong somphane said:
I would cut 15-18% no more no less for the epic.
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that would make it at $28+k for a brain with no way to even turn it on.. Didn't they used to be $27k at one point before some upgrades? I don't think a 15 - 18% price cut is enough to send anyone a message. Why would I buy one at that price when I know Dragon is around the corner for maybe the same price? (Not have to hassle with a $6k upgrade) either way I have too many options at the $20k mark(& I can turn the camera on for that price) so I don't know what I would do. Anyways we'll c the price soon I'm sure the decision has already been made.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
Sorry but many other pro companies are careful about price cuts and that makes people feel safe buying their gear as reasonable investments likely to be amortize-able. K5600, Tiffen Steadicam, Arri.... The list is long. This builds trust. Yes digital cameras lose valeu over time, but not really drastic amounts literally overnight. It's gradual.
.
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Rob, what about $200k + cameras that you don't really hear much about any more because people are now using the "cheaper" Red, Arri, etc cameras. These value drops from the past were much more drastic. Your accountant can write off any business items as a tax deduction over a period of time. Till then its an operating cost like any other.

... another example ... Davinci Resolve Lite is free ... and the full version was very expensive till recently. Technology changes and a business either evolves or crashes ... nobody is ever safe
 
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adam r said:
Rob, what about $200k + cameras that you don't really hear much about any more because people are now using the "cheaper" Red, Arri, etc cameras. These value drops from the past were much more drastic. Your accountant can write off any business items as a tax deduction over a period of time. Till then its an operating cost like any other.

... another example ... Davinci Resolve Lite is free ... and the full version was very expensive till recently. Technology changes and a business either evolves or crashes ... nobody is ever safe
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No Kidding. Used F 900R's (no lens)on ebay can be found for 5000K. F35s for around 15000. Check my math, but at 300,000 (with the deck) at release (late 2007),
its devalued 43,000 PER YEAR!
Thats about 15% per year

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-F35-Ca...rofessional_Video_Cameras&hash=item2576e6a827

Heck, its a fucking good piece of kit if you want 1080. Its built like a tank. Some people are still married to tape for archive reasons.
It might be a good investment if you have a show lined up for it. Not exactly hand-held friendly though...
But my point is, camera systems devalue like mad these days, because they are computers, designed by computers and built by robots.
Not sewing machines filled with moving parts assembled by swiss clockmakers.

Cameras could only devalue faster if you set them on fire.

Epics could devalue faster because they don't use physical recording...no moving parts.
I could easily see Epics 30-40 percent less expensive this year...less expensive than the 27000 original asking price.
On average thats 35%, or exactly 17500...the release price for Red One...
 
I don't know why but I always liked the design of the F35.
I think it reminds me of a film camera.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
...

People here protesting my concerns are not thinking of this from a business standpoint - but from a passionate hobbiest standpoint. If Red wants to aim only at hobbiests making an out-of-pocket feature, then a sudden severe price drop is that way to go. If they want to keep pros (i.e. people making a living from their gear) feeling safe buying their stuff then they have to be careful and be reasonable.

...
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I think you brand Independent film makers using too hot an iron. We are not hobbyists with no business sense. There is a reason we are called Independent. It is because we do not want to give up total control of our projects to someone (maybe someone like you) who are bottom dollar oriented. There's a reason some of this Utoob crap is popular and that is because it resonates. Independent movie makers DO want to make money, but we also want to SOS, that is, save our souls while doing it. So consider that while you are looking down on us perhaps with scorn, we may just be above you looking down on you, shaking our heads in sorrow for you which probably isn't justified either.

And when you get to the crux of it, an Indie is a CEO, CFO, Chief Scrounger, Casting Director, grip, cameraman, DOP, editor... maybe only a few can master all facets but for the most part, a well-rounded diversely talented group of individuals. Hobbyist? That's someone who puts together model airplane kits.
 
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Rob Ruffo said:
Yes digital cameras lose valeu over time, but not really drastic amounts literally overnight. It's gradual.
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Tell that to a Sony F3 owner...
 
I just don't get the point of people complaining about RED will down their prices...

first, camera is a tool... what are you doing with it ? :

1/ shooting your stuff: Great ! Are you afraid other people have the same camera as you and do greater stuff than you do ? well, than the problem is not RED prices but your abilities to do great stuff with their camera.

2/ You are running a Pro rental company: Great ! you probably bought RED Epic 2 years ago and made good money with it (them) so far and you had your money back from long time and now with the future new prices you will have (maybe) to put down your rental prices... but... what ? you don't get back on your investment after 2 years rental ? So you probably better change job and don't run a rental company...

And...before people answer they bough their cameras less than 2 years ago,well, I'm one of those so... I'm just a French freelance dude in Jakarta doing both my 1 and 2 "points" above, thinking that RED putting down their prices is a good thing, why ? Because if tomorrow all the "RED competitors" are putting down their cameras prices but RED don't, you will face people (producers) who will prefer to rent their camera instead of RED ones because they just read the "specs" instead to really know what RED is all about...(you know better...) So you will loose much more money than you pretend you gonna loose because RED going down their prices...

My 2 french dude cents....
 
For reference, a EU based company is taking deposits today and listing the f55 RRP price at €18995. (Euro)



Mike Brennan
dp
Melbourne
 
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Yea if we are going to sit here and talk depreciation, then Rob why don't you take a look at any of the other cinema gear and its values. Cuz from where I am sitting almost any other gear you could of bought, a Sony, Arri, Canon, etc...would actually depreciate at a far faster rate due to their business models, the incremental upgrades, the non upgradable parts, the parts that dont carry over from model to model. Why didn't you buy a C300? Cuz then you could of lost half the value in less then a year! Seriously man, take a step back and look at how all these other investments are EVEN HARDER to monetize (since they built obsolesce into the models within less then half a year typically)
 
Camera is not your girl friend that it will depreciate in 20 yrs or more. :)

Everything in life depreciates. I bought a SUV by paying 25K USD. After 45 days of taking delivery, the price was slashed by 3.5K USD. I felt bad. However, that is how life is. I bought a Sennheiser Microphone at 1200 US and within a month B&H dropped it price to 1000 USD ie. about 16%. No point in being a cry baby.

This is life. These are business decisions. We should thank God that we are fortunate to be pursuing our passion. Today you may feel bad at such a decision, however, tomorrow you may be gaining a lot from such decisions. In the long run these things even out.

RED has got a massive fan following. If RED doesn't do good to this fan club, then some of them will slowly move over to other manufacturers.
 
Michael Brennan said:
For reference, a EU based company is taking deposits today and listing the f55 RRP price at €18995. (Euro)



Mike Brennan
dp
Melbourne
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I have to say I'm really not convinced by this company. They are not a registered Sony main dealer (according to people in the UK). CVP in the UK are adamant that there will be NO price announcement from Sony until RED shows it's hand.
CVP shift a bucket load of cameras for Sony in the UK and Sony won't tell them anything. From their 'sources' they hear the camera will be around £40,000 (kitted to shoot 4K RAW).

Through various threads on this forum there must +300 pages of good and bad predictions, for what could quite possibly be a 10% reduction - maybe it's just better to wait till after an announcement - any announcement that's concrete!
 
Iain Philpott said:
I have to say I'm really not convinced by this company. They are not a registered Sony main dealer (according to people in the UK). CVP in the UK are adamant that there will be NO price announcement from Sony until RED shows it's hand.
CVP shift a bucket load of cameras for Sony in the UK and Sony won't tell them anything. From their 'sources' they hear the camera will be around £40,000 (kitted to shoot 4K RAW).

Through various threads on this forum there must +300 pages of good and bad predictions, for what could quite possibly be a 10% reduction - maybe it's just better to wait till after an announcement - any announcement that's concrete!
Click to expand...

I had the same quote from someone at CVP and from someone who's repping a company at BVE in a few weeks
 
All rumors of course - but I have a source telling me it will be approx. $37,500 for F55 w/RAW recorder. One thing for sure - Canon and ARRI will have to react.
 
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