NEW PRICES! but im very conflicted

[Nathaniel Kramer]

Thank you Arnold!!!
Is this my buddy Arnold that I work with? Or a different Arnold?

1) There is no denying the new Epic price is great for us who would like to buy one.

2) I didn't buy an Epic for $35K but I'd be unhappy if I had. Here's why:

No business owner buys a piece of equipment without considering it's resale value. This is particularly true in a business like ours where the landscape changes rapidly. We are always hoping to get the most in resale for our gear in order to upgrade to the next thing.

We do have to face incremental decreases in value due to wear and tear, small decreases in retail price (example: 5DM2 among many others), obsolescence, etc. All of us accept that.

What many current Epic owners do find hard to accept is an unexpected, manufacturer-imposed free-fall - an instant loss of something like 40% of the resale value they planned for. These people, who lost $15,000-$20,000 overnight, are the folks one member here is calling "whiners." Nice.

That resale value is important to someone who spends $35K on equipment appears to be missed by the following list of less than well-reasoned thoughts directed at current Epic owners. These are all REAL statements by users here:

- you still have the camera
- your camera still turns on
- you already made your money off it
- whiners
- you're anti-RED

If your new car gets totalled three months after you buy it is it consolation that you still own it, or that it starts? If you're unhappy about your totalled car are you a whiner? Does it make you anti-car?

3) There is no denying that the new Epic price is great for us who would like to buy one. There is no denying that the new Epic price is hard for those who already have one.

 

[Paramon Ivanovich]

Thank you Arnold, exactly my thoughts,
just to be clear, I am not an Epic owner, i bought my Scarlet last November so i should be happy, and I am, i am buying an Epic ( only after i play with f55), but reaction of some red users to the situation that Epic owners got into is depressing and surprising to me, competition who can laugh in the most creative way at his neighbor, that just got his house hit by the hurricane, is disgusting.

 

[Joe Ferralli]

I think everyone needs to calm down a bit and look at the big picture here. This actually is great news to have a price reduction. Looking forward, the competition will benefit us all with better pricing for better tools. When we bought our Red's, we had an immediate need. It wasn't an investment, it was a purchase to fulfill projects we had in the pipe. You can never buy a camera and look at it as a financial investment that you can recoup by reselling later. If you don't have the work, don't buy the camera. It's great to own the latest and greatest gear but if you don't have the clients that justify ownership, just wait until you do. Vote with your wallet. I remember buying a Ikegami betacam years ago for somewhere in the neighborhood of $50,000 and only a couple years after the purchase, the Varicam came out. I think the value went down to about $5000. It's the industry we're in. It's the nature of technology. I don't think any of us here are financial wizards, we know our craft and that's usually it. Just be smart about where your money goes. We own an Epic and yes, a $16,000 drop is huge but it was inevitable. Don't buy into the theory that every kid on the block will own one now. It's still a big chunk of change to get into the Red family once you build it for real production. Red is still a great company making great tools. Just be smart with your wallet.

 

[Andy White]

1) There is no denying the new Epic price is great for us who would like to buy one.

2) I didn't buy an Epic for $35K but I'd be unhappy if I had. Here's why:

No business owner buys a piece of equipment without considering it's resale value. This is particularly true in a business like ours where the landscape changes rapidly. We are always hoping to get the most in resale for our gear in order to upgrade to the next thing.

We do have to face incremental decreases in value due to wear and tear, small decreases in retail price (example: 5DM2 among many others), obsolescence, etc. All of us accept that.

What many current Epic owners do find hard to accept is an unexpected, manufacturer-imposed free-fall - an instant loss of something like 40% of the resale value they planned for. These people, who lost $15,000-$20,000 overnight, are the folks one member here is calling "whiners." Nice.

That resale value is important to someone who spends $35K on equipment appears to be missed by the following list of less than well-reasoned thoughts directed at current Epic owners. These are all REAL statements by users here:

- you still have the camera
- your camera still turns on
- you already made your money off it
- whiners
- you're anti-RED

If your new car gets totalled three months after you buy it is it consolation that you still own it, or that it starts? If you're unhappy about your totalled car are you a whiner? Does it make you anti-car?

3) There is no denying that the new Epic price is great for us who would like to buy one. There is no denying that the new Epic price is hard for those who already have one.

Well put and reasonable comment.

I am one of those Epic owners affected - and whilst I applaud RED on one hand for what they've done, on the other, the price slash hurts and throws a number of unexpected elements in my path (that I have to deal with).

I feel that this is Jim's Revenge for some of the stuff that happened in the stages, as many people made a lot of profit back then by selling Epics they bought for a small amount. If I remember correctly, Jim wasn't very happy as he viewed it simply in the fact he was trying to help/protect his loyal RED customer base.

Now we get this - anyone who purchased Stage4 is affected in some way, depending on everyone's plans for ROI. I'm not getting into that debate as it's raging over the forum in many ways.

Suffice to say, my only disappointment is that there isn't a 'bone' tossed to the large volume of Stage4/2012 purchasers. I don't think it should be 'free' or 'almost free', but something to show RED still think about all their customers. It would be easy to offer some type of credit on purchases before the end of the year (or even the end of the month).

I know it won't happen & Jim has made his position clear - I just feel some gesture could end up making the situation diffuse/calmer etc & the everyone can get on

The differential on my Epic (then & now) would have gone on extra RED accessories anyway (Meizer etc LOL

I agree with Arnold's reasoned comment & I think others should take note of that and just consider how the slash affects everyone.

No bitching, no whining, just some mature comment.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Haven't we been racing to the bottom since 2007? These price drops represent a climactic moment, for sure, but the sword of innovation always cuts two ways - it's a great time to be an artist, but not such a great time to be a business owner.

You plays your cards and takes your chances. Same as it ever was. We live in extremely turbulent times where the only certainty is uncertainty.

It's not a great time to be an artist if you can't make a living at what you do.

 

[Chris Knight]

Yes, mature comment.

If Red had been truthful with me six weeks ago and said 'buy one now for $38k or wait six weeks and buy two', but they weren't and they didn't. I've been robbed. I haven't heard any comment how I haven't.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Yes, mature comment.

If Red had been truthful with me six weeks ago and said 'buy one now for $38k or wait six weeks and buy two', but they weren't and they didn't. I've been robbed. I haven't heard any comment how I haven't.

In fairness, they might not have know their plan to do so, as Sony's plan was not yet announced then. That said, I can only imagine how bad you feel right now.

 

[Mark Pedersen]

1) There is no denying the new Epic price is great for us who would like to buy one.

2) I didn't buy an Epic for $35K but I'd be unhappy if I had. Here's why:

No business owner buys a piece of equipment without considering it's resale value. This is particularly true in a business like ours where the landscape changes rapidly. We are always hoping to get the most in resale for our gear in order to upgrade to the next thing.

We do have to face incremental decreases in value due to wear and tear, small decreases in retail price (example: 5DM2 among many others), obsolescence, etc. All of us accept that.

What many current Epic owners do find hard to accept is an unexpected, manufacturer-imposed free-fall - an instant loss of something like 40% of the resale value they planned for. These people, who lost $15,000-$20,000 overnight, are the folks one member here is calling "whiners." Nice.

Here here!

It's been tough enough out there competing against every Tom, Dick and Harry with a 5D package, now Tom, Dick, Harry and Sally will all have EPICs. But hey, one thing we have to keep in perspective is that anyone who owns an EPIC can shoot feature quality images for YEARS. You don't really need to buy anything else in the future unless it breaks. I don't plan too, because I don't want to pay the accelerated depreciation game any more and my EPICs shoot images that more than satisfy my picky eyes

M

 

[Mark Toia]

You can't say that you're client doesn't love the fact that you come with your 5K Epic camera...

Now that the other guy has one too, they won't mind taking a look at his reel too...

I feel quietly confident

 

[Alex Kornreich]

I feel quietly confident

Mark, you're arrogance over the years on this forum has been really annoying. There's something to be said about being humble.

For all you "awesome" DP's who are pissed about the price drop, why would you buy a camera if everyone is hiring you for your skills? Buy high quality accessories and lenses for supplemental income, not camera bodies.

I can count the number of good DP's on one hand who own a camera body here in LA, and it's usually an Alexa.

This thread wreaks of insecurity, possibly worse than Red fanboyism. At least fanboys are entertaining to read.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

the alternative for RED.... if any one cares... because you know, they have to also live with this decision... was to come out with a NEW camera... instead they lowered the price... its the same thing but BETTER for EPIC owners

cant you all fucking see that??? Really?? if the new RED DRAGON came out at $25 with Dragon sensor --- THEN you could BITCH... but guess what? RED decided to improve YOUR CAMERA and offered you the SAME upgrade
and you only need to pay for the SENSOR.

NEWS FLASH: Your EPIC IS STILL RELEVANT AS A MOTHERFUCKER!! Thats what I call loyalty.... and you all should be THANKING RED for this move.

despite all the WOE IS ME ... you all still own a killer camera. Yet you are spending days and days and days on here means... you need to go find work. Lets say you go inane and rent your camera for $900/week = $3600 a month = paid for in 10 months.

Go rent your devalued piece of shit for $300 a day then and get your money back. simple stuff! Plus you should get $500 a day easy... bitching here AINT GOING TO FEED YOUR FAMILIES...

BE THANKLFUL TO RED for changing the paradigm... this is the trade off... a FEW people get hurt. it sucks... but MOST BENEFIT...which is all about the greater good.

Your EPIC is still EPIC... how much more loyalty do you expect? More freebies? Give me a break.... enough with the excuses I challenge you ALL to go make your investment back by getting off of here and on to designing a new flyer to send out... Happy shooting!

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Tim,

How has RED improved the camera? My camera is still the same but now 15k cheaper? Aren't you on here bitching too?

Go rent your devalued piece of shit for $300 a day then and get your money back. simple stuff! Plus you should get $500 a day easy... bitching here AINT GOING TO FEED YOUR FAMILIES...

That's exactly the problem I fear. $500 EPIC camera rentals. Perhaps I should try what your speaking of. I think a $1000 EPIC camera package with lights would be a good offer no? I've been thinking about a fair local price too much... F everyone else.... now... better to rent cheap and get volume.

 

[William Albertini]

I feel quietly confident

Well put, confidence is not arrogance.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Im bitching about the BITCHING...

your EPIC will still be a current model in 2013.... with a new sensor. THAT IS HUGE VALUE ADD ON... if you cant see that...


Then maybe Red should have come out with the RED DRAGON 6K camera for you all to have to buy next year... and for less than your 2012 EPIC-X


and Andrae---you have diversified your offerings... smart.... BUT every single FREE FIRMWARE Upgrade that is enabling more and more cool features... gives you a NEW camera every time - remember that benefit? We are SPOILED by RED... and look who is now giving FREE FIRNWARE in the future... SONY... thanks to RED.

Adapt or die guys... you will all live and should in my humble but LOUD opinion. thank RED for choosing a PRICE CUT over a NEW MDOEL that is priced less with MORE features... THAT IS MY POINT

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Im bitching about the BITCHING...

your EPIC will still be a current model in 2013.... with a new sensor. THAT IS HUGE VALUE ADD ON... if you cant see that...


Then maybe Red should have come out with the RED DRAGON 6K camera for you all to have to buy next year... and for less than your 2012 EPIC-X

If RED had came out with a Dragon EPIC for 15k and I sold my EPIC-X for 9K... I would still be in the same boat. The way to adapt to what RED is doing is to drop rental prices and to go after volume just like what they are doing OR to get a camera (ARRI) that holds its rental value more and as a higher "perceived" brand value.... OR to get out of the camera body race and get a more stable investment with still high returns.

 

[Arnold F.]

This post quoted below aimed directly at the people who lost $20K overnight. He's pretty clear about that I guess but just to clarify - he means you. To paraphrase: current Epic owners are bitching, lazy, make excuses and are ungrateful.

the alternative for RED.... if any one cares... because you know, they have to also live with this decision... was to come out with a NEW camera... instead they lowered the price... its the same thing but BETTER for EPIC owners

cant you all fucking see that??? Really?? if the new RED DRAGON came out at $25 with Dragon sensor --- THEN you could BITCH... but guess what? RED decided to improve YOUR CAMERA and offered you the SAME upgrade
and you only need to pay for the SENSOR.

NEWS FLASH: Your EPIC IS STILL RELEVANT AS A MOTHERFUCKER!! Thats what I call loyalty.... and you all should be THANKING RED for this move.

despite all the WOE IS ME ... you all still own a killer camera. Yet you are spending days and days and days on here means... you need to go find work. Lets say you go inane and rent your camera for $900/week = $3600 a month = paid for in 10 months.

Go rent your devalued piece of shit for $300 a day then and get your money back. simple stuff! Plus you should get $500 a day easy... bitching here AINT GOING TO FEED YOUR FAMILIES...

BE THANKLFUL TO RED for changing the paradigm... this is the trade off... a FEW people get hurt. it sucks... but MOST BENEFIT...which is all about the greater good.

Your EPIC is still EPIC... how much more loyalty do you expect? More freebies? Give me a break.... enough with the excuses I challenge you ALL to go make your investment back by getting off of here and on to designing a new flyer to send out... Happy shooting!

 

[Andrae Palmer]

This post is aimed directly at the people who lost $20K overnight. He's pretty clear about that I guess but just to clarify - he means you. So, to paraphrase him: you're bitching, lazy, make excuses and are ungrateful.

Thank GOD that wasn't me... but I feel their pain.

Tim Whitcomb makes some great points though. What he's basically saying is to undermine the current rental rate of the EPIC in your city. He's right... do whatever it takes to make your money back. It's cut throat out there. All the way at the top (RED) and all the way at the bottom. The rental market is dead as far as camera bodies are concerned. Soon everyone and their mama will have cinema cameras... especially at $4000. Thank you RED.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

This post is aimed directly at the people who lost $20K overnight. He's pretty clear about that I guess but just to clarify - he means you. So, to paraphrase him: you're bitching, lazy, make excuses and are ungrateful.

Excuse me while I go experience a massive, life-transforming self-revelation.

 

[Mike P.]

The way to adapt to what RED is doing is to drop rental prices and to go after volume just like what they are doing...

I admit, this made me laugh.

 

[Mike Garrick]

The sums have changed ......and from now on hardware rental has to adapt.

Myself I'm a firm believer in "wetware" rental. This is where the money is at.