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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

NEW PRICES! but im very conflicted

Oh James, Jon and I have history on this usernet...We do not like each other. Its that whole New York liberal vs the Tulsa right winger christian thing........You mention my post but fail to mention his to which I was responding to.. But I guess you didnt pick up on his insinuations as I did. In any event, i will reiterate, good dp's get hired for their talent, not their gear. And I would bet my Epics there are a lot more talented DP's in NYC than in all of Tulsa, which is not an insult, its just plain numbers. There is much more work here then in Tulsa.
 
I'm happy for everyone that wanted an Epic-X but couldn't, and now can. But I feel like I've been gutted by Red.
 
Things are getting very interesting around here. We keep talking about cameras and camera skills as being key to success. One thing I think we sometimes forget about is one of the most valuable assets of all, the thing that can separate us from the pack - people skills!

I understand some will feel frustrated with this announcement. I'm sure this will affect some people's bottom line. But seems like things are getting a bit personal in quite a few threads. People questioning other people's business practices, questioning their decision making, etc. Not sure it's very productive. The prices are what they are, it's a decision RED has made and now current and future owners have some decisions to make. I encourage everyone to be respectful and engage in healthy discourse. You never know when that person you are engaging with might be a future client or colleague. People skills is something that can carry a career a long way.
 
Nathaniel Kramer said:
Oh James, Jon and I have history on this usernet...We do not like each other. Its that whole New York liberal vs the Tulsa right winger christian thing........You mention my post but fail to mention his to which I was responding to.. But I guess you didnt pick up on his insinuations as I did. In any event, i will reiterate, good dp's get hired for their talent, not their gear. And I would bet my Epics there are a lot more talented DP's in NYC than in all of Tulsa, which is not an insult, its just plain numbers. There is much more work here then in Tulsa.
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Well then I apologise. Didn't realise I was stepping into a long term thing - and you're correct, I didn't pick up on insinuations in other posts. My mistake. Carry on gentlemen.
 
Nate and Jon... is there anything that you do agree on? If so, what is it?

Jim
 
The rental market is gonna be crazy it will be like I'm renting in the DSLR market. lower Prices mean, more cameras and less demand ending in fewer rentals.
 
Jim, I think the only thing we agree on is the Epic is a great camera.. But I do feel slighted that the price was lowered so much so quickly. The 6000 dragon upgrade doesnt sound like such a great deal anymore but i still will upgrade both my epics and I might even buy a monochrome now..
 
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Nathaniel Kramer said:
I think its amazing that prices have been dropped so drastically but I also feel a little fucked... I have bought 2 Epics in the last 9 months and now they have lost a good chunk of their value.. If I was newly in the market for an epic then i would say YAY!, but now my asset's values have cratered... Do I think i will lose work because of the price drop? The answer is absolutely NO. I know that it's who is behind the camera that makes the beautiful pictures, not the camera. It's just a tool, but the value of my tools has been greatly reduced. I doubt Red will do this, but a free dragon upgrade sure would make me feel better :yesnod:
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+1 - at least a reduction for those who paid full or near-full price.
 
As a Producer I never ask about the cost of the camera I ask about the quality of the camera & "the brain behind the brian".

As of today has that equation changed ?
 
Daniel Soderberg said:
You can't say that you're client doesn't love the fact that you come with your 5K Epic camera...

Now that the other guy has one too, they won't mind taking a look at his reel too...
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ditto
 
Mike Garrick said:
As a Producer I never ask about the cost of the camera I ask about the quality of the camera & "the brain behind the brian".

As of today has that equation changed ?
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Yes. You will pay the same for me and way less for the camera I bought with a lot of money, and charge separately for, so I will keep the same jobs and make less money.
 
The biggest issue here isn't if the client is hiring the DP or the Camera, or how flooded the rental market is, this is really about resale value and lost of investment dollars... regardless of how many times you've made your camera back, the depreciation of a camera by 30% is going to cut into your resale value, therefore a partial loss of an investment.

If I bought a stock that drops 30% with in a year, I would certainly be unhappy, but I made the investment and I take that risk. Which is why you have to always know that investing into a technology company has certain risks, especially one who's new and hungry to compete.

However, buying into a company that purposely depreciates their clients investment will certainly cause an uproar. But will allow other investors to buy low, sell with less loss.

That's all
 
Frank, nicely said.. I think its actually closer to 45%, but then math has never been one of my better subjects
 
@ Rob

From previous posts I assume you're an experienced DP. If your hiring experience with gear I will take that any day over gear with limited experience.

Ownership of gear is now no longer pathway to work. What is ...& always has been ................is craft & experience & lots of it.
 
Ted Parkes said:
I had no idea there were so many insecure cinematographers out there. My clients hire me for what I bring the the table and if that includes the camera I own then great. If not then they rely on me to suggest and often arrange the right camera for the job. What this means for us that bought cameras at a hire price is a month or two more before we have full ROI. Then the guy that buys tomorrow... big deal.
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YOU DON'T GET IT. Owner/operator is two jobs 1) Owner, amortizing equipement and guying wisely. 2) Operator. This is art/people skills-based. SEPARATE THINGS.

I am not insecure that my clients will stop hiring me, I am concerned that they will pay so little to rent my camera that I will never amortize it.

This is why I and other people are upset here, whether they think they are below-average DPs or the best in the world.

How hard is that to understand!!!!?

No other pro camera maker has ever dropped the price of their camera so much in one day. These things usually depreciate gradually over at least 1.6 years.

I think many will be shocked by this, and become renters from now on.

Who'se to say that $19 000 Epic won't be $3000 three months from now?
 
Mike, you are correct.. I totally agree and as i said from the beginning, its who is behind the camera that ultimately matters. But as Frank so eloquently said, it does not make one happy when their vendor sells a camera at 38k and a week later they sell the same camera for 24k.
 
This is totally a preemptive strike at Sony and call their price bluff and a genius marketing ploy from RED. Soon every self proclaim filmmaker will own an R1 or Scarlet & even an epic! Its DSLR gold rush all over again.
 
Bulls make money, Bears make money. Pigs lose money. Stay in for the long haul, stay invested and you may recoup your losses. I too have spent nearly $100,000 in the last 6 months with Red as a Stage 4 customer. It took a long time to get the cameras ready and effectively deploy them in service. With Alexa ruling the roost, rentals haven't been particularly easy for Epic or any other camera for that matter. Tonight's announcement wiped out the earnings and left a big gaping hole in the balance sheet. Amortization will be longer and harder for everyone, not just the existing owners. A fully functional Epic even with this discount will still cost $50,000 if not more. Add lenses and workflow support and you are in $100,000K territory. So here is to the brave ones:) I only wish I had gotten into the game lot earlier. Now I can console myself to hopefully be the last man standing:)

I will continue to build the most efficient 4K production infrastructure that an independent owner/operator can hope to have. And also focus on opportunities that simply may arise from so many other cameras. This announcement will shape the eco-system in ways that will go beyond what Red may or may not have thought. A wider acceptance of Epic in television will provide us a bigger market. Let's hope this price cut along with technological innovations(on-board proxy etc.) by Red will make that happen.

Until that happens, buckle up and enjoy the ride or simply go broke for your dreams.....
 
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