New MacPro predictions? Hopes? Fears?

[Jarek Zabczynski]

I think the best way to describe the Tube is not by saying it's a bad machine, it's pretty amazing for what it is, it's just that it's in no way shape or form a suitable replacement for the workstation Apple previously had. If the Tube existed alongside a bigger badder counterpart, all would have been great. Having i7 and single GPU options for it would also have been smart.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

+1

That multi blade systen , add 20 gpu's or mainboards. But realkit, in oarrallel, you can commoditise and use tjw most compact asrt, like the Nvidia TX1 does

 

[Nicholas Croft]

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results"
Why would this be any different this time?

At the time, Apple were reliant on hi end margins from their top Macs. Clones were a major threat. MAJOR.

Apple's revenue landscape is vastly different now. iPhones, skimming off apps and cloud subscription etc, are what 80%+ of their profit?

If Apple were to license their OS on only Intel "HEDT", (X79, X99 etc) for say, $300 USD, and further restricted to run only on 'validated' high end Asus mobo's - as an example - they could mitigate the losses* on Trash Can's**, by a factor of, oh, ten (?) growth in Mac OS installs.

Subsequently driving their subscription business too.

win win.

Not to mention you've just outsourced your manufacturing costs, r&d etc to Asus.

Maybe as an 'experiment', like the Apple TV ;-)

Sigh. A man can dream.

* losses. Its not really a loss to Apple (on an Apple hardware sale) if the customer was going to buy Windows/CentOS due to frustration.

** And they could still sell the nMP too, (preferably with a CUDA cto option) there are plenty who will pay the premium for "it just works".

 

[Nicholas Croft]

You can look all you want, but that can't be done, at least not on the current design. The only GPU's you can have in a trashcan Mac are the ATI internal cards that are already there. External GPU's cannot be used on the Thunderbolt bus with Mac OS X. This is one of the primary problems of the design.

Yes you can. Just not "OOB" ;-) You have to get your hands dirty and muck around with some "kext" files. It helps if you have an PC enthusiast mind set. So, basically the antithesis of the typically Apple user (I am an Apple user btw).
Anyway, google "netkas forum" and the instructions are there.
There's also a few uses over on the Octane forums who have it working - as Octane is 100% reliant on nVidia CUDA support.

 

[Mike Finegan]

so latest Resolve does not efficiently use Trashcan GPU?
I have noticed perf improvements on say redcineX on trashcan and only changes have been RED and Mac software updates...

 

[jake blackstone]

At the time, Apple were reliant on hi end margins from their top Macs. Clones were a major threat. MAJOR.

Apple's revenue landscape is vastly different now. iPhones and cloud subscription etc.

If Apple were to license their OS on only Intel "HEDT", (X79, X99 etc) for say, $300 USD, and further restricted to run only on 'validated' high end Asus mobo's - as an example - they could mitigate the losses* on Trash Can's, by a factor of, oh, ten (?) growth in Mac OS installs.

Subsequently driving their subscription business too.

win win.

Not to mention you've just outsourced your manufacturing costs, r&d etc to Asus.

Maybe as an 'experiment', like the Apple TV ;-)

Sigh. A man can dream.

* losses. Its not really a loss to Apple (on an Apple hardware sale) if the customer was going to buy windows due to frustration.

Your math is off.
If you get $300 per license, and that is a big if in itself, does it makes sense then to lose a $5000-$8000 sale? I believe Apple's average profit margin is 37%. I'm pretty sure on Trashcan is much higher, as this is pretty much the only product they make themselves. So, there you go...

 

[jake blackstone]

Yes you can. Just not "OOB" ;-) You have to get your hands dirty and muck around with some "kext" files. It helps if you have an PC enthusiast mind set. So, basically the antithesis of the typically Apple user (I am an Apple user btw).
Anyway, google "netkas forum" and the instructions are there.
There's also a few uses over on the Octane forums who have it working - as Octane is 100% reliant on nVidia CUDA support.

Yes, people do run Hackintoshes. Said that, you do realize, once you do something like that, you are then on your own, if something happens. How many times there was an OS update and all of a sudden your Mac is out of commission. It happened to me and many people I know. Rest assured, sooner or later, this incessant OS updates schedule will nail you. In my case, luckily, I run a standard 5.1 and it takes a few minutes to get back in business. Good luck with all "mucking around" in the production environment, when you must deliver to the client...

 

[Nicholas Croft]

Your math is off.
If you get $300 per license, and that is a big if in itself, does it makes sense then to lose a $5000-$8000 sale? I believe Apple's average profit margin is 37%. I'm pretty sure on Trashcan is much higher, as this is pretty much the only product they make themselves. So, there you go...

No. It isn't ;-)

Apple lost that sale anyway to a windows/linux (CentOS?) PC. A souped up one, built by a knowledgeable enthusiast.

37% of 0 is 0.

Now, instead of a windows sale, they have another Mac OS installed, with - perpetual? - subscription revenue - ie "Photos*" et al.

And. The hardware costs have been offloaded to the motherboard manufacturer.

*some of them.

 

[Nicholas Croft]

Yes, people do run Hackintoshes. Said that, you do realize, once you do something like that, you are then on your own, if something happens. How many times there was an OS update and all of a sudden your Mac is out of commission. It happened to me and many people I know. Rest assured, sooner or later, this incessant OS updates schedule will nail you. In my case, luckily, I run a standard 5.1 and it takes a few minutes to get back in business. Good luck with all "mucking around" in the production environment, when you must deliver to the client...

This is a reply to adding a Thunderbolt eGPU to a genuine Apple Macintosh.

Cheers from Sydney. ;-)

p.s On (Genuine Apple) Mac stability point updates, agree with you. Since 10.9x we stay at least 6 months behind, and do carbon copy clone duplicates prior to Apple OS updates.
And for all you Hackintosh thrillseekers, CCC is mandatory once you have your 'perfect' system.
https://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench3/search?dir=desc&q=6950x&sort=multicore_score

 

[jake blackstone]

No. It isn't ;-)

Apple lost that sale anyway to a windows PC. (A souped up one, built by a knowledgeable enthusiast)

37% of 0 is 0.

Now, instead of a windows sale, they have another Mac OS installed, with - perpetual? - subscription revenue - ie "Photos*" et al.

And. The hardware costs have been offloaded to the motherboard manufacturer.

*some of them.

No, because that Macintosh by some other PC manufacturer doesn't exist, so that "lost sale" would never be lost. Proposing running a Hackintiosh in a production environment is a non starter. No self respecting professional would run Hackintosh in a mission critical role, when you must deliver on time. So, that buyer is forced to buy a Mac, because, clearly, you're still describing a Mac and that is what users want.
37% average profit margin (actually as I mentioned, it's much higher for MacPro, because they make that computer in USA at their own factory, so i'd guess it's probably closer to 50%) is much better, than 3% you're describing. I'm very happy, that you're not running Apple. As a AAPL shareholder i would not want someone like you in charge of Apple crown jewels and make no mistake, you're talking about the foundation of Apple computer company. Some already tried and thank god, Steve put an end to that stupidity. At the time Apple was on the ropes and they were flirting with bankruptcy. Today Apple is the richest company in the world and they are the only one who boasts a vertical integration on such a massive scale. Getting a few dollars for licensing Macs wouldn't even be a rounding error on their financial statement. Losing that "walled garden" exclusivity would simply be a disaster. If you had followed the latest financials from Apple, Tim Cook predicted, that by 2017 their financial services arm of Apple by itself will be the size off a Fortune 100 companies. That means at lest $28b in sales. So, do you think a couple of million in licensing is enough to derail that goal? Do you think BMW should allow Hyundai to built their cars under a license too? Hey, it's free money, right?

 

[Nicholas Croft]

No, because that Macintosh by some other PC manufacturer doesn't exist, so that "lost sale" would never be lost. Proposing running a Hackintiosh in a production environment is a non starter. No self respecting professional would run Hackintosh in a mission critical role, when you must deliver on time. So, that buyer is forced to buy a Mac, because, clearly, you're still describing a Mac and that is what users want.

Nope. Circular argument. We're not talking about hackintosh either. This idea would negate the raison d'etre of hackintosh.

Apple lost the sale of a "high end" rendering rig to another vendor. A PC running either Windows, or Linux.

Read around on this very site. Going PC is a deeply reluctant move by people who grew up with Mac, and prefer the mac OS far and away - myself included. Tip of the iceberg, here:

http://blog.macsales.com/36741-apple-should-renew-focus-on-mac-users-pros/comment-page-1#comments

Apple are super rich on the back of their mobile division, not Mac Pro's.

Don't get me wrong - I LOVE X79 MacPro's.

Architecturally, they are the right idea (for a non expandable quasi workstation) - a multi core CPU coupled with a few (at the time) high end-ish gpu's, with unparalleled industrial design.

They were tailor made for FCPX: AMD's implementation of OpenCL, (and, on iMacs/MacBookPro's a soupçon of Intel Quick Sync).
Especially with the one-off 8 core 25mb cache (E5 1680 v2) that Intel did as a custom order for Apple (a 10 core chip with two cores disabled, but with all the cache intact).

They shot themselves in the foot not offering an equivalent nVidia card. Was it politics? Thermal considerations, a technical limitation with Thunderbolt? Arrogance? Who knows?

The 2015 Maxwell "980" that was retooled (shrunk down) for PC portables would have been a nice peace offering. Again, I seem to be dreaming. (Have you seen those PC portables, yuk).

Anyway, if your toolset is heavily dependant/optimised for "CUDA" - Premiere Pro, Octane Render, AutoDesk etc, then Apple's post 2013 line up don't cut it. Which is a shame.

Further, if you want 6, 8 or 10 overclockable cores, Apple don't have your back there either. Have a look at the trend here:

http://ark.intel.com/compare/63696,...781,77912,82766,82931,82930,88195,92985,94456

So, we're catering to the market that wants:

CUDA in particular. Or just newer AMD's, (OpenCL) especially with more ram/rops than the "D700".
and/or:
Multi Core overclockable CPU's.

I did say restricted to Intel "HEDT" in the first post. Heck, Apple could charge $500, $600 for open source and it'd sell in droves. Anyway, its a dream.

Cheers.

p.s They CANT do it because their iMacs sales would nose dive too, unless they seriously re-thought their pricing too.

Or just give everyone back the mini tower on x99 + thunderbolt :yesnod:

 

[Nicholas Croft]

so latest Resolve does not efficiently use Trashcan GPU?
I have noticed perf improvements on say redcineX on trashcan and only changes have been RED and Mac software updates...

Mike. I'm no colourist, nor an "artist" - I do IT support for other creative workflows. But I do see certain trends in apps that are cpu/gpu dependant. To that effect, here are some links that I hope shed some light on your query.

Anybody else, if I'm off base, please step in and correct me.


https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=36223

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=35184

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=49713

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=33113

Maybe you're already across the matrix of gpu options, so forgive me if this comes across presumptuous.

If you'd like some help in decoding "gcn" from "maxwell, pascal" etc - it can be tricky getting equivalent comparisons for model numbers "290x vs D700, Vs 980ti" etc vs architectures and model year releases, not to mention bang for buck - I'm only too happy to help.

 

[jake blackstone]

Nope. Circular argument. We're not talking about hackintosh either. This idea would negate the raison d'etre of hackintosh.

Apple lost the sale of a "high end" rendering rig to another vendor. A PC running either Windows, or Linux.

Read around on this very site. Going PC is a deeply reluctant move by people who grew up with Mac, and prefer the mac OS far and away - myself included. Tip of the iceberg, here:

http://blog.macsales.com/36741-apple-should-renew-focus-on-mac-users-pros/comment-page-1#comments

Apple are super rich on the back of their mobile division, not Mac Pro's.

Don't get me wrong - I LOVE X79 MacPro's.

Architecturally, they are the right idea (for a non expandable quasi workstation) - a multi core CPU coupled with a few (at the time) high end-ish gpu's, with unparalleled industrial design.

They were tailor made for FCPX: AMD's implementation of OpenCL, (and, on iMacs/MacBookPro's a soupçon of Intel Quick Sync).
Especially with the one-off 8 core 25mb cache (E5 1680 v2) that Intel did as a custom order for Apple (a 10 core chip with two cores disabled, but with all the cache intact).

They shot themselves in the foot not offering an equivalent nVidia card. Was it politics? Thermal considerations, a technical limitation with Thunderbolt? Arrogance? Who knows?

The 2015 Maxwell "980" that was retooled (shrunk down) for PC portables would have been a nice peace offering. Again, I seem to be dreaming. (Have you seen those PC portables, yuk).

Anyway, if your toolset is heavily dependant/optimised for "CUDA" - Premiere Pro, Octane Render, AutoDesk etc, then Apple's post 2013 line up don't cut it. Which is a shame.

Further, if you want 6, 8 or 10 overclockable cores, Apple don't have your back there either. Have a look at the trend here:

http://ark.intel.com/compare/63696,...781,77912,82766,82931,82930,88195,92985,94456

So, we're catering to the market that wants:

CUDA in particular. Or just newer AMD's, (OpenCL) especially with more ram/rops than the "D700".
and/or:
Multi Core overclockable CPU's.

I did say restricted to Intel "HEDT" in the first post. Heck, Apple could charge $500, $600 for open source and it'd sell in droves. Anyway, its a dream.

Cheers.

p.s They CANT do it because their iMacs sales would nose dive too, unless they seriously re-thought their pricing too.

Or just give everyone back the mini tower on x99 + thunderbolt :yesnod:

I wasn't talking Hackintoush, I was discussing a non existent Mac built by a third party, which will never happen. Apple already done it and it clearly was a mistake born out of desperation. The moment the new Trashcan will be announced, everyone unhappy with the state of MacPro will start singing praises to Apple, only to start bitching again a couple of years later. The main problem is the idea of a professional computer without an ability to upgrade and use an off-the-shelf parts, like latest GPUs of their choice is a non starter. So, you can continue to argue for better specs and keep asking for new computer and OS or just bite the bullet and move to Windows or Linux. Yes, it's scary for many to leave the confines of a familiar consumer environment for the enterprise solutions, which may require an IT person help, but that is the price you pay for staying with Mac- expensive, inflexible, underpowered and non upgradable.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

It was not a mistake, it was clearly better, and by what means they avoided class action and anti-trust on the sudden locking out of established third party manufacturers, I don't know. In those days Microsoft may more money off their OS side then Apple did their comouters. However Apple just needed to be more competitive ratyer tjsn eliminate the existing third party. That was yet another time Apple effectively stopped me from buying in. A trend, if I'm not buying in, their are usually always good reasons. A warning.

Are we going get real hardware I can triple boot, with as many cores, and a few highest end Nvidia Tesla/Titan etc and AMD options, stacks of drives, etc, or are we going to get yet another limited boutique computer. Remember my blade suggestion, Apple was aiming for a pizza box, maybe, blade system before going to the present Mac Pro. Get it in Apple, name it the Frequency (of options) Unit, tell the competition you have a FU for them.

 

[Nicholas Croft]

I wasn't talking Hackintoush, I was discussing a non existent Mac built by a third party, which will never happen. Apple already done it and it clearly was a mistake born out of desperation. The moment the new Trashcan will be announced, everyone unhappy with the state of MacPro will start singing praises to Apple, only to start bitching again a couple of years later. The main problem is the idea of a professional computer without an ability to upgrade and use an off-the-shelf parts, like latest GPUs of their choice is a non starter. So, you can continue to argue for better specs and keep asking for new computer and OS or just bite the bullet and move to Windows or Linux. Yes, it's scary for many to leave the confines of a familiar consumer environment for the enterprise solutions, which may require an IT person help, but that is the price you pay for staying with Mac- expensive, inflexible, underpowered and non upgradable.

OK, we're, almost, on the same page.

*I'm not talking about clones - "Open Source", for a fee. The mac OS, enabled on, say, Asus "Rampage" motherboards, for DIY enthusiasts, alongside the Apple nMP.

They would both sell.

I know they'll, probably, never build an expandable mini tower like 4,1 5,1 etc, or licence the OS to 'enthusiasts'. Lets hope they keep turning a bling eye to HackT, for those that can get them (production) stable 24/7.

How's your X10DRG-Q going? Which version of Linux did you settle on?

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

I know they'll, probably, never build an expandable mini tower like 4,1 5,1 etc, or licence the OS to 'enthusiasts'.

There's supposedly one insider that has seen the next MacPro and claims it has one processor, PCI slots for two GPUs but not a traditional tower. We can only hope.

 

[Nicholas Croft]

There's supposedly one insider that has seen the next MacPro and claims it has one processor, PCI slots for two GPUs but not a traditional tower. We can only hope.

That would be nice. Here's hoping.

Single CPU would make sense, X99 can go up to 22 cores, so dual cpu isn't such an issue. Although Apple would probably top out at 18 cores to keep the price 'reasonable'.

 

[Spencer Weaver]

There's supposedly one insider that has seen the next MacPro and claims it has one processor, PCI slots for two GPUs but not a traditional tower. We can only hope.

So, when will we hear more from Apple???

 

[jake blackstone]

How's your X10DRG-Q going? Which version of Linux did you settle on?

SuperMicro is a great computer. If only it wasn't so loud
I have no choice on the Linux. It's CentOS 6.6, which is the distro, that Resolve runs on. Installed ParagonNTFS/HFS and it's pretty much now a universal computer- it reads and writes anything you throw at it. Have 3 GPUs with room to spare and dual 12 core V3 processors, internal 8 drives Megaraid, a super cheap ATTO quad 8GB Fiber card to go with my old Fiber drives. I can literally install anything I want on this computer. It's nice not to worry about what Apple is going to do next...

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

So, when will we hear more from Apple???

If Apple doesn't at least make an announcement by the end of the year I think it's safe to say they are giving up on the MacPro brand.