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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

New Audio Board Evaluation

Hi James,

Thanks a lot for this review, hoping Epic will get us there.

Stuart,

Have you guys condsidered a partnership with APOGEE, this would seriously rock, their A/D-D/A converters are the best in town and they are seriously cool people.


Emmanuel
 
Emmanuel Cambier said:
Hi James,

Have you guys condsidered a partnership with APOGEE, this would seriously rock, their A/D-D/A converters are the best in town and they are seriously cool people.


Emmanuel
Click to expand...

great idea - I hope Red is open to input (pun intended) on a new audio section.
 
Audio

Audio

APOGEE .... A/D-D/A converters are the best in town and they are seriously cool people.
Click to expand...

Its always good to have reference Emmanuel, so I thank you for that.

This issue of audio levels and headroom though is really about expectations...

It has many parallels to the question of what level do you record 18% Grey with 12-bit RAW rather than the traditional 8 bit 4:2:2 ?
 
Audio Expectations

Audio Expectations

To expand on that comment about " audio expectations" it would be useful to hear just what your expectations are....

And it would be useful to separate those to "soft" and "hard" audio requirements as follows -

Soft would be comments like -
"it has to be easy to use", "conforms to expectations", "doesn't add color", "shouldn't sound quiet in FCP", "you should use full size XLRs" etc

Hard would be specifications like -
"I need xx dB of headroom above what I'd set at peak operating level", "I need a minimum of xx dB s/n", I need xx mA at xx V to power my xx microphone" "the max RMS voltage the audio section should accepts should be xx V RMS" etc
 
Audio Expectations / Philosophy.

Audio Expectations / Philosophy.

And maybe there should be a change in operational pholisosphy when you shift from a 16-bit to a 24-bit recording solution.

Why? Because you have much large range of digital values available you should be able to choose to use those values to -
a) to achieve higher precision in the recording, or b) to reduce the nominal operating level, which increases the maximum input signal before clip.

Note: We have the same kind of tradeoff on the image side of the camera - there you adjust ISO to trade off signal to noise v's highlight protection.


So to answer the question: Why not use standard operating levels of +4dBu?
The answer is - its just a reference, how much headroom do you want between that operating point and maximum signal level?

If you want a lot - as maximum signal level in a digital recording system is fixed - you much reduce the recorded signal so that there is that headroom in the recording.

Or you could apply a limiter - just as we could apply a REC709 gamma curve on images. But when we record RAW in video domain, we add any required highlight roll off in post. There is very little "riding the IRIS or ISO" which would be the equivalent of "riding the pots" on an audio recording.
 
Hey Stuart- is it possible for the R1 to be given different audio presets? I have found as well, that the audio is a bit low when I bring it into post, but it really isn't an issue to bring up the gain- it stills sound great.
 
Raul Gonzo said:
Hey Stuart- is it possible for the R1 be given different audio presets? I have found as well, that the audio is a bit low when I bring it into post, but it really isn't an issue to bring up the gain- it stills sound great.
Click to expand...

DITTO!!!:smash:
 
Presets

Presets

Hey Stuart- is it possible for the R1 to be given different audio presets? I have found as well, that the audio is a bit low when I bring it into post, but it really isn't an issue to bring up the gain- it stills sound great.
Click to expand...

Can you elaborate on that please?
 
In post I normally have to boost the gain by 20db to get it to a good setting without clipping.
I almost always using a shotgun mic straight into the camera, so there might be a preset for shotgun mics, and a preset when going to a mixer, and a preset that would appease something that the original PO was saying is more the norm to him, and so on.
I'm not a huge audio guy, so I am sure there is a good reason this is happening and as I said before, it is mostly a non-issue with me, except when trying to watch my levels during a shoot.
Just a thought.
 
If its not already done why not create a list of the top issues users would like to see from scarlet/epic audio may help lock down those features that professional users need.
 
Audio Quality

Audio Quality

yes.. that would help.... as I'm a bit confused because I get fantastic audio with my RED. I work with a producer that had done a few dozen albums and he was commenting the other day how good my audio sounds... and I just use AT897's straight to the RED.
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Agreed, but we get a real mixed bag of comments....

... which suggests operational confusion or differences in expectation.
 
Stuart English said:
Agreed, but we get a real mixed bag of comments....

... which suggests operational confusion or differences in expectation.
Click to expand...

You know what might help us, you shoot a little something with a RED, test the audio and see that it sounds GREAT to you, then post it, we can download it, import it into FCP and see if it sounds GREAT or if it's flat. This might help us determine if our audio boards are defective or something.
 
Stuart English said:
So to answer the question: Why not use standard operating levels of +4dBu?
The answer is - its just a reference, how much headroom do you want between that operating point and maximum signal level?

If you want a lot - as maximum signal level in a digital recording system is fixed - you much reduce the recorded signal so that there is that headroom in the recording.

Or you could apply a limiter - just as we could apply a REC709 gamma curve on images. But when we record RAW in video domain, we add any required highlight roll off in post. There is very little "riding the IRIS or ISO" which would be the equivalent of "riding the pots" on an audio recording.
Click to expand...

18 dBu above +4dBu reference would work with most pro mixers. That's the key - the ability to work in an industry standard with industry standard equipment. And to maintain that level into post production.
 
haven't shot on R1 in a couple months. but i'm shooting right now on build 20 and finding my same old problems. camera is so sensitive!

i run an oktava mk012 into mackie 1202 line out to R1.
R1 set to 0db line in. headphone out master set to -11, L and R set to 0.

listening back from camera, it sounds like it's clipping when the R1 meters get to near orange.

mixer's meters are way lower than camera meters, as always, and no crackling of any sort listening back from mixer, as always.

as i've said, if i was to put an sdx900 next to the R1, disconnect from R1 and stab into sdx900, my signal would barely register. maybe if i maxed the sdx900's pots it'd be enough or too much.
i just don't get why the R1 audio behaves so much differently than other cameras i've worked with.
 
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