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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

New Article About Red One and Rentals

I work for a Rental Company and we bought Red Cameras so we could rent our lenses, the Camera is not the money maker. Some One who pays 17.5K for a Camera probally is not going to pay 52K for a Optimo 12 to 1. We found our lenses going out quite a bit while our 535 and 435 sit on the shelf and collect dust,so buying a Red was a no brainer for us.
We also have Grip trucks, lighting, Fisher Dollies, super Techno Crane and we offer discounts if you get everything from us. That may not seem fair to the Owner /Operator, but you guys mostly operate in a whole different market
I have been in this business since 1980 and I have seen many sweeping changes in this industry, and it always passes. So, today it's the Red Camera. Tomorrow, who knows?. But you can be sure it will move on to something else.
 
Jeff Coatney said:
The Red is about the filmmaker, not the rental house. The film industry has traditionally protected itself by limiting access to professional level tools and thereby limiting competition. Red utterly destroys that, far more violently than people realize. Red crushes the idea of fewer films and fewer directors. Red crushes nearly every aspect of how we make movies.

Two years have brought enormous changes. The Red footprint is not a glut of cameras, it is a renaissance of filmmaking. Stop putting the money you have to make films behind the camera and start putting that money in front of the camera. The savings are real and getting bigger, put the cash you save on the screen. It's about your art, your skill, your message, it's no longer about the tools. "Become who you were born to be."
Click to expand...

Great words, Im completely agree.

Dave
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi Alex,

In 2008 I shot less days of video/digital than any year since 1988.
I shoot more days of 35mm than 7 years ago, I also turn down more work than I did 7 years ago & earn more.

Producers still ring up and say times are tough, will I work for a special rate or free, I generally send them this link.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE

Stephen
Click to expand...

Holy shit Stephen. That clip is epic. Thanks for sharing that - I want to hang out with Harlan now
 
True the a market is saturated. And the deals are available. The lowest quote i received for a 5 wk shoot was 4500 for a complete package including lenses. We went with a slightly more expensive package because they threw in more primes, a DIT and workstation (we subsidized the DIT with 50/day fee). I never believed much money could be made by renting RED in the long term. In fact, I thought the money with a RED centric business lied in the post process. Now I'm not so convinced. The release of the SDK and the advent of software solutions from Cineform, Adobe, and Apple and the very cheap high capacity RAID solutions available allow for home grown post all the way to 4k deliverables if need be. I predict the next wave of discounting will be the post world....
 
tonaci said:
Hi Stephen,
My point being, while your experience has been majority 35mm, just because you don't experience it in your region doesn't mean that RED has not made a huge paradigm shift in others.
Click to expand...

Hi Tonaci,

I could have shot 100 days of RED if I wanted to work for nothing or very little, that's my point. I am in this business to earn money not as a hobby.

Best,

Stephen
 
Jeff Coatney said:
Nice article. It sums up the current situation on the ground in a market like Los Angeles that has a large supply of equipment rental options. I feel that it mischaracterizes the strategy Red is employing however. To say simply that there is a glut of cameras in the rental market takes a narrow view of the situation. Instead of the gloom and doom predicted by the author of what fates may befall the Red Owner/Operator in the Rental business, I see a burning reason for all filmmakers to be even more interested in shooting Red. I also see an even more accelerated rate at which film departs. The economics of 35mm are changing, just as we all predicted, making it even more affordable than ever to shoot 35mm. Just not on film. This is fantastic news.

I feel the author of this article is looking at the market in his rear-view mirror. He is obviously a seasoned professional and perhaps its that experience that has informed his opinion on the matter. All the market indicators that he has cannily identified as negatives from a rental perspective, I see as roadsigns to a much brighter future for filmmakers.

Zoom out a little and take a look at the big picture for a moment. Two years ago a 35mm shoot day would have cost thousands of dollars. Now it costs hundreds. How much did it cost to finish a 35mm project to HD? Now, just two years later we can do it for a fraction of the cost. Shooting a 35mm short two years ago would have been an option for about 10% of the filmmakers that had a film they wanted to make. Now, shooting a short in 35mm is possible for 80-90% of filmmakers. Even in the economic downturn.

So if you have an expensive post house or a huge rental house with film cameras, you are justified in feeling nervous about your investment. If you bought a Red thinking you're gonna retire off what you make renting it out, that wasn't good planning in the first place.

The Red is about the filmmaker, not the rental house. The film industry has traditionally protected itself by limiting access to professional level tools and thereby limiting competition. Red utterly destroys that, far more violently than people realize. Red crushes the idea of fewer films and fewer directors. Red crushes nearly every aspect of how we make movies.

Two years have brought enormous changes. The Red footprint is not a glut of cameras, it is a renaissance of filmmaking. Stop putting the money you have to make films behind the camera and start putting that money in front of the camera. The savings are real and getting bigger, put the cash you save on the screen. It's about your art, your skill, your message, it's no longer about the tools. "Become who you were born to be."
Click to expand...

Jeff, you nailed it down.

I see that the RED camera is mainly a author's camera. So many story tellers who traditionally went into VX1000, PD150, DV100, HD100, HVX200 etc. aim at RED - strongly. They just rent what they don't want to buy / always need. Its THEIR camera, its THEIR lenses (for as much as can be adopted). The rental situation isn't easy on the one side, but RED changes it for a better IMHO on the other side. Its so much easier for a rental house to explain a RED than a HD CAM or Varicam or just an HD100. Thats time usually never paid for a rental house. Most rental houses I know of aren't really happy about shooting HD in general - simply too many buttons for many customers, too many reasons for failure - and that always is blamed to the rental house being guilty, not to the inglourious film maker who just isn't up to the technology.

The RED liberates film making. That was one of RED's intends.

When poeple discuss about numbers here, well, its hard to predict. But a self contained mini-RED Scarlet with embedded lense isn't necessarily the cheapest camera, but one that INTRODUCES YOU (the user) to the RED workflow. THAT IS THE POINT. RED is the only camera system out there that can streamline acqusition in multiple resolutions and target markets with a single workflow concept. Clearly we have dozens of ways to handle RED footage in todays toolsets, but its all based on the very same format / codec approach. THAT changes a lot, I predict. If you shot HDV you aren't in business for shooting HD CAM and so on. RED is very different here. You can start as ambitious hobbyist and end in a block buster level - using pretty much the same toolset in the end. That doesn't make you the successful blockbuster shooter automatically, but it gives you a chance you may not had before.

Now talent is the profession, not only having the money.

Another question is how RED may develop into different markets currently not yet really targeted, like e.g. broadcasters etc. (just to name one possible market segment). For now its very unlikely that RED is playing a big role here, but who knows what Jim and his team are breeding about? Broadcasters mean thousands of units world wide. And one thing is very clear: EVERY solution provider in the film industry has currently no better thing to do than to implement support for RED workflows. That paves a street, a broad street...

Axel
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi Alex,

In 2008 I shot less days of video/digital than any year since 1988.
I shoot more days of 35mm than 7 years ago, I also turn down more work than I did 7 years ago & earn more.

Producers still ring up and say times are tough, will I work for a special rate or free, I generally send them this link.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE

Stephen
Click to expand...
already known as.. once the butcher asks to the actor a ticket for the show.. the actor says..

"sure.. btw give me the bull's best part but for the whole week"
 
I think people should be thinking less what Red can do and more about what the market does!
D
 
Things shift constantly if you are not able to instantly calibrate your approuch you are F_ked, even if you start out on top you will soon be left in the dust.

In other words you are either a victim of circumstance or you find a way ( :Invent it: ) to make it work=turn it around=spin that sucker ...

Hard times are good times if you are looking for those openings that weren`t there before the earth began to tremble.

So no matter who you are in the food chain or where you are positioned in the ranks of The Red Legions the common denominator we all share is that survival depends on our willingness to ... "Do The Hustle"


DogDay.
 
craft vs art

craft vs art

I don't think the sky is falling in worldwide on Red rates.


Numerous posts were made on this forum informing newbies that historically rental charges for electronic equipment have been based 1% per day of purchase cost (and often less from owner operators).

Such post were flamed, often quoting the notion that the client should/would pay rates based on what the camera is worth (ie 35mm rates) rather than the purchase price of the camera.

There was hope that this would have worked but in reality the high number of ametuers/part timers aspirational RED owners have undercut to get a gig.

Now I don't believe RED has scratched the surface as there is still tremendous resistance for many genres of TV programme making to the workflow of copying and erasing rushes on location.

The statement that RED one will not become obsolescent was a powerful concept to those who otherwise would not have entered the fray...and it is one advertising slogan I still think should be scrapped.

The point is that the market consider an electronic camera that is superseded as being second best.

So when thousands of Epics hit the camera trucks rates for RED ones will drop.
You could argue that your REDone has the same chip has Epic but the Epic owners will be crowing about smaller camera modular build ect ect.

This is less relevant to those shooting their own projects with REDones.

When cost of CF comes down to $1 per minute RED kit will become even more popular.
When this happens the effect will be different than what happened in broadcast with introduction of 20,000 DV cameras, because whilst there was understanding that DV wasn't fully up to broadcast or theatrical spec a RED camera will be seen to cut the mustard.

Clearly high spec cameras that can deliver outstanding performance will be as cheap and ubiquitous as DV cams are today.

RED may well offer higher spec cameras, but for many of us camera choice is in the hands of producer and accountant.

So newbies should do their sums carefully for any future purchases, I'm all for exploring new kit and new ideas but at the same time am saddened by the number of people who bought into the RED family who are struggling to make the sums add up.


Although hype and art may go hand in hand hype and craft are uneasy partners.



Mike Brennan
 
Mark,

As astute as I consider myself to be at times I missed that...And now that you point that out I regret posting it...Please take it down.

I don`t for a second believe in laughing AT people especially at their expence or misfortune.

And I hope with your acute sensitivity grasp that my intention was not to mock those people but to make another point...But yes you are right, and in that light it is indeed in poor taste, and now that we know what the content actually is, lets take it down.


Nick.
 
I talked to a rental house owner yesterday that has over 20 Red Ones and he said he needs to order more... depends on your business I guess.
 
Supply vs Demand is one of the most interesting topics you'll ever study. Throw in Quality and the conversation gets really complicated...

I can go down to the local Budget Rent-A-Car and get a $30,000 car for $120 / day. The car performs a specific function and due to the many manufacturers the market is stable (the supply / demand point). Red has made enough cameras that the supply / demand function has swung to favor the buyer (of the rental agreement) in certain locales. People who thought a $50,000 device (Red) would rent out for the same price as a $100,000 (Arri film) device simply do not understand economics.

Admittedly the car analogy is not a good one as the Red is a tool that can make something of great value in the right hands while a commodity car just moves people around. How much is Hertz renting out their $60,000 Corvette Rent-A-Rocket? Way more that twice the rate of the $30,000 car, due to the interaction of quality (or performance), supply, and demand.

I plan on making films, if I'm really good one of my films may become a movie. Being good depends on my abilities as a writer, producer, and director. *Good* people manufacture their own luck. :weight_lift:

The camera is a device that the cinematographer will use. For me the reasons to buy are:
A) B roll all summer long, whenever I want.
B) Give it to my DOP to live with so he can become an expert at it.
C) Perfect my own post production work flow.

If you want to learn to whittle you'll need to spend some time with a knife...

Bob
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi Alex,

In 2008 I shot less days of video/digital than any year since 1988.
I shoot more days of 35mm than 7 years ago, I also turn down more work than I did 7 years ago & earn more.

Producers still ring up and say times are tough, will I work for a special rate or free, I generally send them this link.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE

Stephen
Click to expand...

That was an awesome clip. So many people try and do this, get something for nothing. But the ones that have respect for your craft and that it was you that bought the equipment will often try and meet your rate. At least that's what I've found.
 
gdv said:
When Scarlet and Epic will show up the market will be more down to earth.
I don't think so many people will buy the Epic, and the Scarlet, for a few reasons:
Click to expand...

I get you point about the epic, but remember that a lot of people will trade their RED one to be at the cutting edge, since RED are offering such a nice upgrade path.

But Scarlet, well that's another question entirely. Look at the fixed lens version, aiming for $3750 including power, storage and small EVF of some kind. I presume the 2/3" brain will be a slightly lower price point since a lens mount of course costs less than a lens. If it will have a C-mount option you will see a lot of Bolex-type cameras on eBay the day after it launches, minus lenses :)

Of course there will be headaches, and some horror when people realize that they need to spend $1-2000 on a new computer to deal with the footage from their new camera. And it won't be perfect for everyone etc. etc....but in the hands of a competent person it's going to do amazing things.

For comparison, the nearest price/performance is something like a Sony EX1, which goes for about $6000 new. I mentioned the Sony both for the sensor size (1/2") and the true 24p, let's not get into 'which Japanese camera' flame wars. Now that class of prosumer HD cameras will continue to have a place after Scarlet comes along - established brand, clearly established workflow, physical camera size looks more pro in certain contexts, and so on. And you can expect that they'll ratchet up the FUD and the marketing deals at the same time to preserve their market share.

But lots of us who would never dream of buying a RED one (in my case, I've never had that kind of money in the bank, and am not about to take on more debt than I have ever possessed) can see ourselves affording a Scarlet. ~$4000 plus another few thousand on computer and accessories...yeah, I can cope with that basic price, plus I can think of many ways to keep the cost of the extras in check. It's not that the RED One (and future variants) isn't worth it, it's just way past a lot of people's financial capability.

For many people the low price point coupled with the color + resolution are going to be absolutely killer. No more fucking around with white balancing and inferior codecs eating your valuable color information. This is already a big deal since now your main concern technical is latitude and exposure, which is streets ahead of most video cameras already.

Then, there's 3k resolution, which is also a Very Big Deal - because this is enough for 80-90% of people. I mean really, it's only a few years ago where A list films like Spiderman were getting a 2k DI (4k for the VFX shots). If the film is Ok in other respects (story, cinematography, lighting, sound, acting) then no potential buyer is going to turn up their nose at a 2k master.

But what about the sensor size? Oh, you want Full Frame 35mm sensor, we all do...but is it THAT important to most? No. The Depth of Field will be 'good enough' for a lot of purposes, as will the sharpness. If we take it as being competitive with Super 16, there's a really long list of commercially successful films shot on Super 16: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Films_shot_in_Super_16

I know, I know, it's not as simple as I make it sound here...but it's still serious awesome. In the context of this thread and the article which inspired it, would you rather spend $5000 renting a RED one for a month...or just buy a Scarlet and some necessaries? If you're not already in the business of making money out of your camera gear, buying the Scarlet looks like a much, much more realistic approach to making that first saleable movie.
 
Leaf Baimbridge said:
Not a chance. The adult entertainment industry will collapse before the end of 2009.
Click to expand...
They will be pushing hard for more inroads, trying any available door to penetrate the market. They will push forward from the front and also from the behind, most likely both at the same time and possibly other avenues as well. They may succeed. They have had a history of happy endings when it looked like things weren't working.
 
If you can't see a revolution happening before your eyes, you need an optometrist.


rev·o·lu·tion
Pronunciation:
\ˌre-və-ˈlü-shən\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English revolucioun, from Middle French revolution, from Late Latin revolution-, revolutio, from Latin revolvere to revolve
Date:
14th century

2 a: a sudden, radical, or complete change b: a fundamental change in political organization ; especially : the overthrow or renunciation of one government or ruler and the substitution of another by the governed c: activity or movement designed to effect fundamental changes in the socioeconomic situation d: a fundamental change in the way of thinking about or visualizing something : a change of paradigm <the Copernican revolution> e: a changeover in use or preference especially in technology <the computer revolution> <the foreign car revolution>
 
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