NEW 720p vs 2K/96fps POLL: Let's see where we stand with realistic options!

[Don King]

What for a new poll? This is silly.

 

[Stephen Webb]

What for a new poll? This is silly.

Maybe because the other poll includes an option that's impossible?

 

[Häakon]

I agree, 1080p scaled from the full sensor has to stay. It's the only way to get 60fps from the full sensor onboard, and will provide a much needed way for many users to deal with their footage immediately in post. As for this poll, I really am ambivalent... I *personally* won't be shooting windowed with the camera, so it's a toss up for me. BUT if voting for the 2K/96 option means nuking both 720 AND 1080 onboard, then I just can't support it. My vote is for whatever configuration will keep 1080p60 from the full sensor intact. If they both will do this, then either side can have my vote.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I agree, 1080p scaled from the full sensor has to stay.

Agreed.

Now I also have to wonder if there's really much point to this poll anyway. Reading Jim's posts, it doesn't seem like we're choosing between the two (720/1080p RGB recording vs. 2K windowed).

The way I took it is that Jim was asking if we still wanted 720p/1080p RGB capabilities, to which many people said they did because of the possibility of 720p at 120fps. And then the next question was if it would be OK to drop 720p if they could still deliver 2K windowed at 96fps.

In other words, 2K windowed has always been part of the spec and I think we're going to get the highest frame rate they can give us, currently 96fps as a maximum looks possible. And this is going to happen whether they keep 720p or not.

As stated before, I couldn't care less what happens to onboard 720p (I know, I'm self-serving). But the 1080p does need to stay. And being realistic about it, that means that both 720p and 1080p will stay because we're talking about support for onboard RGB recording with either one. If 1080p is there and enabled, it's hardly a stretch of resources to support the same functionality to record 720p. The point in eliminating them would be to eliminate onboard recording to REDCODE RGB, as a whole. To save FCPGA / DSP space or resources.

 

[Häakon]

The way I took it is that Jim was asking if we still wanted 720p/1080p RGB capabilities, to which many people said they did because of the possibility of 720p at 120fps. And then the next question was if it would be OK to drop 720p if they could still deliver 2K windowed at 96fps.

In other words, 2K windowed has always been part of the spec and I think we're going to get the highest frame rate they can give us, currently 96fps as a maximum looks possible. And this is going to happen whether they keep 720p or not.

I think your whole post was really smart (and I'm with you on what should stay), but reading through it, I feel like some parts are somewhat contradictory.

Just so I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that since 2K windowed has always been part of the spec, and since you think we're going to get the highest frame rate they can possibly give us in this mode (96fps?), then regardless of what happens we're definitely getting 2K at 96fps. Right?

Reading further, you're saying (and I agree) that 1080 has to stay. And if 1080 stays, then 720 stays, because RGB recording would already be enabled and making the provision for 720 would be no big deal (I don't know if this is or not, just trying to paraphrase what you wrote). However, if 720 and 1080 are staying, and 2K at 96fps is staying, then what's out? Jim started the topic because he was saying there isn't room for everything - so something has to go (if we keep all these options).

The missing piece is, of course, 120fps in the 720p mode, but is that more taxing on the FCPGA than enabling RGB recording altogether? Again, I'm no engineer - but I'd be surprised if that was the case. It seems like when dealing with more fps what you need is more bandwidth and a faster processor to deal with the data, not space on the FCPGA for those instructions. In other words, it already knows how to write a 720p image from the scaled window - you just need to record those frames faster. So if that's actually the case (and notice that Jim did say that both 720p AND 1080p are losers), I think that's why some of us are worried that enabling 96fps in 2K will banish the RGB options entirely. And that's not cool.

Again, most of this stuff is speculation as we don't have an official answer yet, but there is a lot of good discussion happening either way!

 

[Justin Anderson]

Truthfully though, you could always add the 720p later if you wanted to as a firmware update, right?

 

[Tom Lowe]

This poll is gonna be a blow out.

 

[Jeremy Hughes]

I would love the 1080p120 feature if it's possible yet. Was that a live output or was that able to be recorded onboard?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Just so I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that since 2K windowed has always been part of the spec, and since you think we're going to get the highest frame rate they can possibly give us in this mode (96fps?), then regardless of what happens we're definitely getting 2K at 96fps. Right?

Yep. That's what I was saying... 2K windowed has always been part of the spec over this past year or more. Frame rates on RED are variable, so we shouldn't be looking at increases in FPGA or other internal space requirements to enable rates up to 96fps vs 60fps. So if 96fps is do-able in 2K windowed REDCODE RAW, then I would figure this will happen regardless... Just as we were already expecting 2K windowed REDCODE RAW at 60fps.

Reading further, you're saying (and I agree) that 1080 has to stay. And if 1080 stays, then 720 stays, because RGB recording would already be enabled and making the provision for 720 would be no big deal (I don't know if this is or not, just trying to paraphrase what you wrote).

Correct. And I'm obviously not privy to the internals of RED and how they have designed the internal FPGA, DSPs, etc... But if onboard scaling and recording of RGB is enabled, the actual resolutions available shouldn't put too much additional strain on resources. To me this seems to be a question of having enough internal space to accommodate RGB recording algorithms. Mode specifications shouldn't be more than a handful of bytes to assign parameters to the RGB record infrastructure. Mode specs could even conceivably be loaded via SD or CF cards or other interfaces. So, if 1080p RGB recording is retained, then 720p should be nothing more than a few parameter changes from there.

However, if 720 and 1080 are staying, and 2K at 96fps is staying, then what's out? Jim started the topic because he was saying there isn't room for everything - so something has to go (if we keep all these options).

Now this is where I get a little confused too... Obviously internal resources are being stretched to their limits. Jim said "We don't have to change anything... it was just a thought." And he mentioned getting creative at the last minute. He said that shooting 720p and 1080p are a waste of time and he (and it seemed he implied the RED team as a whole) wouldn't ever shoot these modes. So it seems there's no need to deviate from the intended record modes, but there's a desire to. Why does Jim feel that 720p and 1080p are a waste of time? Is 4K and 2K acquisition, post and delivery really that simple? Are there other things that are coming to light now that could benefit from the FPGA space freed up by not including the RGB record modes?

The missing piece is, of course, 120fps in the 720p mode, but is that more taxing on the FCPGA than enabling RGB recording altogether? Again, I'm no engineer - but I'd be surprised if that was the case. It seems like when dealing with more fps what you need is more bandwidth and a faster processor to deal with the data, not space on the FCPGA for those instructions.

My thoughts exactly. And reading back through it all, it seems that everyone got hung up on 720p 120 vs. 2K 96, when that isn't the real issue at hand. But rather do we want to retain the ability to record REDCODE RGB 720p and 1080p onboard the camera.

I think that's why some of us are worried that enabling 96fps in 2K will banish the RGB options entirely. And that's not cool.

I don't think that's the case. I think Jim was saying that we'll get the 2K 96fps (or somewhere about there, maybe even 100fps). And he wants to know if having that ability would negate the desire for 720p 120fps because he would like to eliminate the whole 720p & 1080p RGB functionality to save FPGA space for something else.

Again, most of this stuff is speculation as we don't have an official answer yet, but there is a lot of good discussion happening either way!

Yep... I think I'm waiting for Jim to chime in on the matter again. Lots of speculation laced with confusion around here.

 

[Häakon]

I would love the 1080p120 feature if it's possible yet. Was that a live output or was that able to be recorded onboard?

I would love the feature that does my laundry and cooks my breakfast, if that's possible too... :tongue:

Kidding aside, I don't ever remember hearing a mention of 1080p120 ever being a plan or possibility with the first gen of this camera. I think it's always been 720p120 (from scaled 2K only) or 1080p60.

 

[Don King]

Maybe because the other poll includes an option that's impossible?

Impossible, did you say impossible? Could we guess then this last update?