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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

New 6K Terra Camera: 6K for $5400?

Wayne Morellini said:
Think about it, unless you do something expensive manufacturing in China is cheap. Now what would you rather buy, one of the low end Red cameras, even a ursa mini, or this with Chinese warranty and support? It needs to be a bit cheaper is all I sayimg, as incentive, along with every one of their past cameras I've looked at.
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Why must it be much cheaper? Sure, it would be nice if it is a couple of grand cheaper, and if it was I'd then be leaping to pre order one. But it is already offering crazy good value? And why should "Made in China" mean it should automatically be priced at almost free? *LOTS* of items made in China are very expensive! (such as Apple iPhones)

If you don't factor in the price / support / brand name cred, then I'd go for a Kinefinity Terra 6K over URSA Mini 4.6K or RED Raven any day of the week.

However... those are factors to consider, thus here I go:

For brand name it would rank: 1st) RED 2nd) BMD 3rd) KineFinity ("who??" Unfortunately would be a common reaction)

Support: 1st) RED 2nd) BMD 3rd) KineFinity (though the gap back to 3rd would be smaller if you've got a Chinese speaking partner to help smooth out the language barriers and provide a connection in China, which I do)

Price: URSA Mini 4.6K, then a Terra 6K would roughly the same price maybe a little more (or maybe even less, as the Terra 6K starts out more expensive but has radically cheaper media than a UM46, which would claw back the cost gap), and then finally a RED Raven complete package would be about double the price of a UM46 kit. Which then simply rules out the RED Raven for me.

And I'd be left with a tight contest between UM46 or Terra 6K (cost is basically the same more or less, and arguably the support with Kinefinity isn't "too much" worse than BMD??), do you go for the well known and a bit better supported URSA Mini or take a punt on the Terra 6K with its better features? (smaller size / higher frame rate / higher resolution / more mount options / focal reducer option / cheaper media / more input & output options / 3D sync / claimed higher dynamic range / etc)

I'm feeling like leaning towards the Kinefinity Terra 6K!



Wayne Morellini said:
To tell if they are limping or a raging success. What are the sales numbers. Popularity and sales can be different., though I doubt it from your response David.
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I don't know their sales numbers, but it would be in the thousands of units I assume.

Wayne Morellini said:
Anyway, my questions remain, who is behind these cameras and this company?
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It is no big secret, they often post on Chinese language forums. It is just that most of us westerns don't speak it natively.
 
Thanks David for the blog post.

shashbugu, 4k compressed raw codec patent stopping competitors cameras (cough, cough BM 4k, cough, cough). Where are these patents? It should be literally illegal to have a 4k raw codec patent that stops competitors of all raw codec types based on resolution, as literally patent law is not meant to work that way. The patent in probably at least a little more constricted in range than that. Bm would be in clear violation, as well as maybe some camera recording mechanisms that existed before Red existed. Where is the legal opinion on this? There has even been many actual illegal patents in history people have been forced to pay to because once granted it was so expensive to challenge to overturn it. I know somebody that looks very familiar from the same city who filed a famous "geniuse" patent that sounds similar to my work which I had a copy stored on an online account that I was suddenly locked out of about when they 'started' their work. If I had been able to challenge before it wasngranted that would have been cool millions in my share, as it is they are so incompetently behind (like most all that copy rather than hire the originator). Almost as bad as that the ff'ing famous patent the same as what I brought up for a research job but latter filed that year (again my version probably blows it away). Again, I would like to know legal opinion on how wide this patent actually is. Anybody wants to invalidate some compression claims are welcome to look at some of.my prior.public declarations on the web as to new way better mechanisms. And yes, it is not my best stuff either, I keep the best stuff strictly to myself. Anyway, nearly 50 and a bug in my pants about all the nohopers incompetently cashing in on my work. I'm a sharer and a carer, but ball the greedy people don't want to leave anything for anybody else and throttle the economic goose.
 
That's one thing I love and hate about our industry...technology progresses so quickly, sometimes when you make an investment, it's worth nothing the following year. RED has tried to take care of their customers the best way they can with buyback and incentivized programs, which helps augment the otherwise astronomical cost of a new camera purchase. You don't see Canon, Sony, etc doing this. RED has changed and continues to pave our industries path. While you have cheaper 4K+ cameras coming from manufacturers like Blackmagic and Kinefinity, personally, they are in a league well below RED for obvious reasons, though I'm glad they are also pushing our industries price points downward. I think BM even had some influence on RED's latest Raven announcement in terms of price-point.

With NAB right around the corner, new cameras/products will continue to be announced up to and during the convention...RED probably still has a few more tricks up it's sleeve waiting to be unleashed at midnight the Sunday prior to NAB starting. Interesting times for sure.
 
Nicholas Austin Skinner said:
This is exactly the kind of bigoted ignorance I'm talking about. Aside from the look of the Terra, which has a definite RED DSMC/DSMC2 influence going on, how can you possibly know the rest of what you're saying? You're just jumping to conclusions based on prejudices you have about China and what that vaguely means.
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Nicholas, China has a reputation for business espionage... and Jim famously declared that most of their DSMC cameras will be made in the USA. Without saying so, I read between the lines that some of their IP was being stolen from or by their Chinese business partners.

But whether that happened or not, China has a reputation to re-rehabilitate before getting a pass on making and selling knock-offs. Japan had this same problem after WWII, but has since become a symbol of how to be a good international partner in the business community.
 
David Peterson said:
Why must it be much cheaper? Sure, it would be nice if it is a couple of grand cheaper, and if it was I'd then be leaping to pre order one.
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David, I love when people prove my point while challenging it, in the first sentence. Why not buy it then you understand the Chinese probably speak it etc.

- But it is already offering crazy good value? And why should "Made in China" mean it should automatically be priced at almost free? *LOTS* of items made in China are very expensive! (such as Apple iPhones)

Nobody mentioned cameras for cents. Anyway, there are a number of things to price against. A homemade 4k camera is probably $1k may be even an 8k camera depending on sensor availability. Now this camera is constructed in a different way that adds costs, but it friends on how it is constructed and how much volume and net profit. Yeah, it can be done significantly cheaper in China. Something's, like sensors, have to be sourced and can hurt.

- If you don't factor in the price / support / brand name cred, then I'd go for a Kinefinity Terra 6K over URSA Mini 4.6K or RED Raven any day of the week.

My point again.

- However... those are factors to consider, thus here I go:

- For brand name it would rank: 1st) RED 2nd) BMD 3rd) KineFinity ("who??" Unfortunately would be a common reaction)

- Support: 1st) RED 2nd) BMD 3rd) KineFinity (though the gap back to 3rd would be smaller if you've got a Chinese speaking partner to help smooth out the language barriers and provide a connection in China, which I do)

Just tripping over Chinese partners on sets around the works these days? We are pulling sine really big Chinese deals locally, one is one of the biggest in the world. What I hear from somebody in the know, is that there is an attitude with variouse people that they don't even want to hire interpreters because the rest of the world should speak Chinese. Cross cultural support is very difficult and local agents are vital. So until they can offer this locally or from base it better be a lot cheaper like you indicated.

- Price: URSA Mini 4.6K, then a Terra 6K would roughly the same price maybe a little more (or maybe even less, as the Terra 6K starts out more expensive but has radically cheaper media than a UM46, which would claw back the cost gap), and then finally a RED Raven complete package would be about double the price of a UM46 kit. Which then simply rules out the RED Raven for me.

Frankily 6k is like play putty to me, and for low end 4k production matters very little over the much cheaper 4k mini, except for that non dragon level sensor they are use. Now if your on a weapon budget then it probably matters more.

- And I'd be left with a tight contest between UM46 or Terra 6K (cost is basically the same more or less, and arguably the support with Kinefinity isn't "too much" worse than BMD??), do you go for the well known and a bit better supported URSA Mini or take a punt on the Terra 6K with its better features? (smaller size / higher frame rate / higher resolution / more mount options / focal reducer option / cheaper media / more input & output options / 3D sync / claimed higher dynamic range / etc)

Not speaking Chinese and having local (I mean in country) agents, BM every time. How many hours is it going to take on set talking to support in China, and his much? I baulk even at a Red. A low budget nobody might get by fine doing local events etc.

- I'm feeling like leaning towards the Kinefinity Terra 6K!

I recomend trying it. Frankily, if they had a 4kp50/60 shooter in a complete package with eng and prosymet shooting control and color options, for $2k-$1k I would be intetessted in looking at it.

You can't do full sensor 4k raw, so is the downscaled 4k going to be cinstricted to the full res p30, or was that the 5k camera? Other reasons I avoided kinefinity before, the frame rate spec is low for the cine market.

- I don't know their sales numbers, but it would be in the thousands of units I assume.

My point, that is too low. The entire market for pro cameras in China should be similar to the US by now, or soon. The dynamics are that national productions go to more people but that doesn't nessacarily translate into more productions. But with more on the ground local productions there will be more low end potential, except that there is not the amount of local wealth as in the US, so probably similar until much more. But the point, is the major volume of the market should be smaller productions and cheaper xanwras, as it is in the west. The US sees more cameras, just because a lot of stuff is done in the US.

Their salrs should be tens of thousands. I can't do the calculations at the moment to say if it could be more in the Chinese market alone.

I- t is no big secret, they often post on Chinese language forums. It is just that most of us westerns don't speak it natively.

It's called press releases, market reports, market research firms etc that report such things.

I wanted to ask what the biggest serial numbers people had inntheir xanwras, and on Red canweas, to get an idea.

Thanks

Wayne
 
This camera's ProRes authorisation hasn't appeared on Apples official list, maybe they are still at the final stage of obtaining authorisation from Apple.
 
Luke Mason said:
This camera's ProRes authorisation hasn't appeared on Apples official list, maybe they are still at the final stage of obtaining authorisation from Apple.
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It might not be Authorized by apple. You can obtain a license from another licensee.
 
Just wait for NAB. I suspect we're going to see all kind of new manufacturers, like it happened with gimbals and drones.
There will be number of various sensors available, so companies will just start designing their own enclosures, using standard accessories and using open source codecs, like cDNG or paying license fees for Prores and DnxHR.
 
He, he, my point as well.
 
The craft camera started as an audrino board interfaced to a camera sensor board in a cardboard case. What is shown in the website is definetly nolonger cardboard, and they used to say HD and 4k cameras this year under $1k (but am unsure if this is one or both types of camera. If it is the latest nvidia chip it should be rather hefty in power.
 
jake blackstone said:
If that was the case, BM would have bought one years ago from Assimilate. Assimilate could use the cash:)
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I keep wondering why Redgiant, Boris, Genarts, Kinefinity or even GoPro hasn't bought Assimilate. Somebody needs to help them.
 
shashbugu said:
I keep wondering why Redgiant, Boris, Genarts, Kinefinity or even GoPro hasn't bought Assimilate. Somebody needs to help them.
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If they were worth anything RED would have bought them....
 
They said it's already authorised, so it should be on the list now. If they lied about it then Apple has zero tolerance about this.
 
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