Network approved cameras

[Jeffrey T. Morgan]

EDIT: this talk may have happened before, in fact I know it has, but I am looking for current state of the situation info. thanks.

Hey guys

I just got off the line with a colleague at Discovery Networks.

At the moment, Red One is not an approved acquisition format for them (as far as he knows) so he doesn't think Scarlet will be either.

Now, everything changes, etc etc etc. But for those of us making a living NOW with our gear, these kinds of things can sink your company. My plan / hope is to buy a Scarlet when it comes out. On the other hand, if my connection for work grows, I will always follow the money, then buy a Scarlet for personal projects. But at the moment, I am not rich. I make a living and support my family shooting features and corporate work and docs. I don't want to have to own 3 different cameras, and it isn't possible to.

The only hinderance are these lists.

I know they exist for good reasons, but they also update REALLY slowly, and don't keep up with TECH.

Can anyone (from RED and from the working world) shed light on the current state of things? Anyone working in the field hear anything about the allowances from different networks? Anyone at RED working feverishly to develop stable relationships with these companies? What about bond holders on Motion Pictures?

Thanks for any guidance, advice, and future plans.

Jeff Morgan

 

[Robert Frank]

I just got off the line with a colleague at Discovery Networks.

At the moment, Red One is not an approved acquisition format for them (as far as he knows) so he doesn't think Scarlet will be either.

Is there someplace that Discovery has published a list of approved/disapproved cameras?

 

[Ian Planchon]

pulled this off another forum, its the same thing I have in a PDF on my computer. this is a couple years old (as stated above, they are slow to update).

PHOTOGRAPHED (HD GOLD):
Aspect Ratio - 16:9 HD
Shooting Format - HDCAM SR / HDCAM / DVC PRO HD
Standard (resolution / scanning method / frame rate – 1080i 59.94 / 1080i 50 / 1080 Psf 23.98 / 1080 Psf 25 / 720 P 59.94 / 720 P 50 / 720 P 25 / 720 P 23.98

PHOTOGRAPHED (HD SILVER & BRONZE):
Aspect Ratio - 16:9 HD
Shooting Format - HDCAM SR / HDCAM / DVC PRO HD / HDV / XDCAM HD 35 megabit
Standard (resolution / scanning method / frame rate – 1080i 59.94 / 1080i 50 / 1080 Psf 23.98 / 1080 Psf 25 / 720 P 59.94 / 720 P 50 / 720 P 25 / 720 P 23.98

PHOTOGRAPHED (SD):
Aspect Ratio - 16:9 Full Height Anamorphic
Shooting Format - Digital Betacam / Betacam SP / IMX 50 Megabit tape / IMX 50 megabit / XDCAM Disc / DVC PRO 50 / DVCAM (Special Exception Required) / HDCAM SR / HDCAM / DVC PRO HD / HDV / XDCAM HD 35 megabit]
Standard (resolution / scanning method / frame rate - NTSC / PAL

 

[Jeffrey T. Morgan]

I was told the list is hard to get, which seems illogical. I am following up for it.

ian, thanks for that list. Where is it from?

Any Red owners or Red employees have any experience with this issue? Plans?

Jeff

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I don't see why you can't just shoot 4K HD on the Red and transcode and deliver a 1080P SR master to Discovery; the quality would be just as good as any other high-end HD camera out there. Unless what they really want is 60i HD.

I know the recently Red has been doing demos for the studios and whatnot about their latest developments; hopefully it will change some minds. In my various job interviews, some networks and studios have expressed hesitation about the Red and I've tried to explain to them the great improvements that have recently taken place. Luckily when I did that TV pilot for Fox Television, the producers were already comfortable with file-based camera systems and post, having shot one series on the ARRI D21, so it wasn't a big sell to get them to use the Red One -- and they seem happy with the results.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I don't see why you can't just shoot 4K HD on the Red and transcode and deliver a 1080P SR master to Discovery; the quality would be just as good as any other high-end HD camera out there. Unless what they really want is 60i HD.

Because sometimes it isn't about image quality, despite what they tell you.

Sometimes they just want to keep the unwashed masses out.

Since RED has democratized gear, they have upped their requirements to include more expensive gear.

Its silly really.

That said, once you get "in" with Discovery and do a show or two, they will work with you. They will let you shoot with RED/Alexa or 35mm- just so long as you take care of delivering a 1080/59.94i HDCAM SR master to them.

Its a bit harder on the low end, for EX1 users and the like. No matter what techno wizardy you bring them EX1 & EX3 is approved for "Bronze" level only.

Again though, once you have produced for them, things get easier. EX3, with upgraded optics and a nanoFlash, with HDCAM or better delivery can get you into "Silver" level.

By comparison an XDCAM F350, which is in many ways the same camera as the EX3, will get you into the Silver level right out the gate. You'll may be able to wheedle into Gold with an F350, improved optics. a nanoFlash and HDCAM SR delivery.

What is right out is the Canon DSLR cameras. You can't use those as a principle camera on a Discovery show. You can definitely use them as a special purpose camera, just don't plan on using one as your main gun no matter how tricked out you have it.

That's just Discovery mind you. I don't know about Nat Geo and Smithsonian.

So, for your first jobs with such channels follow their instructions carefully, and use the cameras they say they want. Once you are in, you can get some wiggle room and do more creative things.

Always follow the money.

In DC, where Discovery, Nat Geo and Smithsonian are headquartered you are far better off looking at Alexa than anything from RED- if you plan on working with those networks. (Alexa is pretty Awesome- I like EPIC better, but Alexa kicks ass.)

Panasonics HPX3700 is your best bet, as opposed to anything with a PL mount and requiring film style crew/production.

Me, I just want an Alexa because they named it after me.

 

[M Most]

Because sometimes it isn't about image quality, despite what they tell you.

Sometimes they just want to keep the unwashed masses out.

Since RED has democratized gear, they have upped their requirements to include more expensive gear.

I don't know about Discovery, but as far as the major broadcast and entertainment cable networks go, those statements are completely false. The kind of exclusion and paranoia you're hinting at simply doesn't exist. Decisions about camera gear and vendors are based on producer and camera department requests, past experience, availability, perception of reliability, and compatibility with production, post production, archival, and delivery formats. Cost is not the overriding issue, the above considerations generally are.

 

[Ronald Reddick]

Interesting take on the major Doc channels. My wife is currently pitching a Cranberry Doc all shot on a Cannon XL HD camera and is getting good reception from them. She started shooting this before we got the Red. So I do not think it is always about what gear you have, sometimes the story is key.

Since shooting Red and XDCAM i find I sell a lot of stock of both formats, and yes, even some to Discovery shooters looking for something unique, which footage from Afghanistan still seems to be. This has been my best selling stuff as the Major news crews do not venture far out from either the military group they are with or from Kabul. While I may be crazy and head out into the wild so to speak.

So IMHO, depends on how you are approaching them, I think if it is with a pitch and you then go shoot, yes, they have there rules. If it is a finished piece, and its good, its seems the door is always open. But of course they have their editing style, which is a whole new can of worms.

Ron

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I don't know about Discovery, but as far as the major broadcast and entertainment cable networks go, those statements are completely false. The kind of exclusion and paranoia you're hinting at simply doesn't exist. Decisions about camera gear and vendors are based on producer and camera department requests, past experience, availability, perception of reliability, and compatibility with production, post production, archival, and delivery formats. Cost is not the overriding issue, the above considerations generally are.

Well, I wasn't talking about the other channels.

In re-reading what I wrote, I definitely overstated my case I overstated my case when it comes to Discovery.

I should be clear, setting a high bar for equipment in order to exclude low end producers is a PART of their thinking, not the entire reason. Discovery definitely prides itself on the high technical calibre of their high end shows, and to do that they have to set standards of course.

The Bronze level of shows exists entirely so that low end producers can get involved- so clearly me saying they are trying to "bar" low end producers is going too far. You can meet this level of show's standards with an EX1.

My main point is that if you show up at Discovery's door for your first project you had better just use the approved cameras for the level of show you want to work on.

Don't bring up cameras not on their list, unless its really the only way to get a shot.

Get a show or two under your belt with good results their way before you try to bring up new things.

I know for a fact RED has been used on Discovery shows, but every one of those REDs has been associated with someone with a track record at Discovery.

 

[Ian Planchon]

I have been working a lot lately pitching a doc to nat geo and discovery. I found those lists while researching their tech requirements. Nat Geo is pretty similar.
The requirements are pretty strict if you are pitching a project that is to be funded by them, but if you already shot something, like the cranberry doc, they might be a little more inclined to take it as long as the story is good. There are plenty of shows that are shot with handy cams that were picked up by discovery because of the quality of show (deadliest catch is a good example).

 

[James Brundige]

Shoot with whatever camera you want. A good post house will create a good master, and no one will know the difference. I've had master tapes undergo all sorts of tech reviews, using a wide assortment of cameras. Never a problem, as long as your post house goes through every shot with a scope, and adjusts accordingly.

 

[Jeffrey T. Morgan]

Guys,

this has been very helpfull. mostly having common sense confirmed is great.

I think I am looking at renting something like the Pan AJHDX900, which I have a lot of experience with and is a gold level camera, then when scarlet comes (some day) I can plead my case.

All very interesting

David, thanks for the info as well! It would have been really nice for Red to give a current state of things, but I notice they avoid that kind of talk. I am a fan and supporter, but its hard to work with vagary in this field.

Jeff

 

[Jeffrey T. Morgan]

James

That is fine enough advice if I can afford to work on spec. And I have a Silver / Bronze camera... several in fact, at my disposal. And I am associated with plenty of spec projects. But as far as getting hired, regularly, and paid by a person with a great track record...

I don't mind playing by the rules. I just need to understand the current and future state of them.

Jeff

 

[Ian Planchon]

James

That is fine enough advice if I can afford to work on spec. And I have a Silver / Bronze camera... several in fact, at my disposal. And I am associated with plenty of spec projects. But as far as getting hired, regularly, and paid by a person with a great track record...

I don't mind playing by the rules. I just need to understand the current and future state of them.

Jeff

what camera do you have? I believe for discovery, the sliver level cameras are approved for 100% acquisition, whereas the bronze are limited to something like 20-30%. so you could be fine with what you have.

 

[Jeffrey T. Morgan]

The XHA1, XLH1 and HVX 200 / HPX 170

I am now thinking that my best option is to rent an approved gold camera (if thats what they want) then when scarlet comes out, hopefully be trusted enough to have a good conversation. There are actually a lot of Panasonic HDX900's out there, just got to find someone who isn't using it a lot, and I can get a good rental deal.

This is all provided Scarlet ever comes out and lives up to its specs ;-)

Jeff

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

While it doesn't list cameras here is a one sheet guideline that gives some information for Discovery.

http://dhd.discovery.com/guidelines/gallery/guidelines.pdf

I used to have a link to their approved camera list and usage guidelines, but the link is now dead.

Stay away from HDV, or modes like XDCAM 25Mbps that emulate HDV. Only about 15%

16mm film is specifically claimed to be not suitable for use on Discovery HD Theater. That's a fairly high standard in my mind, because 16mm is better than most 2/3" video cameras without question.

That last paragraph reminds me, Which Discovery Channel are you producing for... Science Channel has different requirements than HD Theater etc etc.

Someone mentioned "Deadliest Catch." I don't know the genesis of that show, but ongoing production uses fairly low end cameras. Its because of the environment. They literally lose cameras overboard, and have them damaged by water and salt all the time. I once heard, though I can't confirm of course, that they go through as many as 10 cameras an episode. I think a lot of the show is shot on very low end cameras as a result.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

The XHA1, XLH1 and HVX 200 / HPX 170

I am now thinking that my best option is to rent an approved gold camera (if thats what they want) then when scarlet comes out, hopefully be trusted enough to have a good conversation. There are actually a lot of Panasonic HDX900's out there, just got to find someone who isn't using it a lot, and I can get a good rental deal.

This is all provided Scarlet ever comes out and lives up to its specs ;-)

Jeff

That's probably the best plan, and frankly I could have saved a lot of typing if I just said that to begin with.

 

[Jay Gannon]

While it doesn't list cameras here is a one sheet guideline that gives some information for Discovery.

http://dhd.discovery.com/guidelines/gallery/guidelines.pdf

I used to have a link to their approved camera list and usage guidelines, but the link is now dead.

Stay away from HDV, or modes like XDCAM 25Mbps that emulate HDV. Only about 15%

16mm film is specifically claimed to be not suitable for use on Discovery HD Theater. That's a fairly high standard in my mind, because 16mm is better than most 2/3" video cameras without question.

That last paragraph reminds me, Which Discovery Channel are you producing for... Science Channel has different requirements than HD Theater etc etc.

Someone mentioned "Deadliest Catch." I don't know the genesis of that show, but ongoing production uses fairly low end cameras. Its because of the environment. They literally lose cameras overboard, and have them damaged by water and salt all the time. I once heard, though I can't confirm of course, that they go through as many as 10 cameras an episode. I think a lot of the show is shot on very low end cameras as a result.

It was shot on FX-1 and Z1's up until recently when I think they changed. Not sure what to.

 

[Rob Gardner]

Its the master you deliver that matters. While there may be issues getting in the door in the first place (another subject entirely) they either accept or reject your masters based on their tech specs and the department that reviews the tape is not the department that commissions the show. And they can reject your masters regardless of what camera you use, too.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Its the master you deliver that matters. While there may be issues getting in the door in the first place (another subject entirely) they either accept or reject your masters based on their tech specs and the department that reviews the tape is not the department that commissions the show. And they can reject your masters regardless of what camera you use, too.

True.

Not only camera selection, but lens selection, recording medium/codec, mic selection and audio recording format all are tech places you can be rejected by Discovery.

On delivery you can be rejected for any number of tech issues with your master- incorrect format/medium, broadcast standards compliance...

Then of course there is the subjective quality of your show.

I haven't been on the money side of things, but I think Discovery leaves producers a very narrow profit margin. I have noted that the few times I have worked on Discovery shows they do try and nickel and dime you to death.

Someone once told me Discovery is the Walmart of TV production- they were referring to aggressive pricing practices, not the image quality.

They are in town, and I generally don't work with them because of what I've heard about them- which is second hand usually, and because most producers with a Discovery project try to low-ball me.

They are the biggest private sector producer in DC that I know of though.

They must have at least some good project deals in the market, because some local folk I respect do work with them regularly.