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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Need Some Business Advice....

Tom Lowe

Tom Lowe

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I am currently embarked on shooting a 45-min film called THESE SHORT DAYS. It's a BARAKA-style, non-narrative film showcasing the American Southwest. It's a mixture of 20 mins of timelapse with 25 mins of live-action shots.

What is the exact length needed for a one-hour American TV show, if I was hoping to sell it to Discovery HD or National Geographic, etc? 48 minutes?

Also, if I am fortunate enough to "sell" it to a channel like PBS or Discovery, how much money might I expect from a deal like that, and what kind of deal might I hope for? Do I just get a one-time payoff, or am I licensing the film to them? Can I expect any residuals?

Thanks very much for your advice!
 
Typical program time for a one hour show is usually around 43:00. PBS is probably longer.
 
Tom -

I look forward to seeing this!

I dunno .... "a BARAKA-style, non-narrative film showcasing the American Southwest" screams BRANDED ENTERTAINMENT opportunities to me.

I can just imagine a series of screenings/events in DRIVE IN MOVIE THEATERS in the Southwest courtesy of our AUTOMOBILE and BEER sponsors ....
 
Mark, want to become my business advisor? :)

Hahhaha.. I'm so clueless.
 
Tom,

I've been out of the documentary realm now for a couple of years, but it was my bread and butter for a long time, until the influx of reality shows came sweeping through the landscape, destroying the aesthetics and sensibilities many of us worked so hard to honor and preserve...anyway, it gets worse :-)

Standard length nowadays for one hour is anywhere between 38 and 44 minutes, with 42-43 being the norm. I'm sure many others here have had different experiences to mine, some better, some much better, but having been at both the best possible scenario I could have hoped for and the "you gotta be kidding me if you think I'll sell this program for that miserable amount" ends of the stick, I have a fairly good idea of how it goes. First of all, one offs are very hard to sell nowadays, especially for Nat Geo or Discovery, both of whom do all their purchasing based on daily and weekly time slots. Nat Geo might be a bit more lenient since their international lineup is much more loose, but when they buy for their international subsidiaries, they really pay nickels, especially to first timers. A one hour piece might command anything in the $5-10K range normally, and they usually ask for perpetuity rights, or 3,5 or 10 years, and in the latter case, expect prices to be at the low end. It sucks, I know, but that's how it is. Discovery is much more prostituted nowadays, and would offer you, if at all, anything from $3-6K for perpetuity rights. F...k them, I haven't sold anything to them in a long time and won't even try again.

However, in your case, where I see a better avenue for you is with PBS, which won't offer you much more money, but will be more flexible in negotiating rights so that you can actually own your program back one day. If I were you, I would concentrate first on HD Network, HD Theater and the few other networks that showcase HD all the time. You might get a much better deal with them. Also, one thing a friend of mine did which worked quite well was to hit the TV manufacturers, where he ended up selling a time lapse piece similar to yours to Toshiba for upwards of $200K! Even better, once he changed the music, the editing and the theme, he was able to sell the "new" program to a couple of other networks. One thing is for sure, entering the doc in as many festivals as possible would generate momentum for you and facilitate sales, and an agent, believe it or not, can be a HUGE help. They take a cut out of "fortune" you'll get paid, but they have a much better chance of getting it sold than you. Then again, you can go at it yourself, and then the festival route works great, but once again, get your rear end to NAB with a bunch of blu ray copies and pitch the footage (the "footage", not the documentary) to all the manufacturers, you'd be surprised...Food for thought I hope.

Good luck,
 
Rudi, thanks. I am making a couple thousand dollars USD a month just off the stock footage at Getty right now!... so there is no way I would "sell" anything for the kind of prices you mentioned for Discovery, etc. Can you explain better what you mean by "buying" stuff for $3-$6K? Those numbers seem like a total JOKE to me. It seems ridiculous. I hope I am misunderstanding you.

I need to make at least $200K USD on this by the time all is said and done. :)
 
Perhaps you should sell them the piece as a first installment in a series, so they can see it as a marketable "property." Then you could raise the ante a bit. Just a thought.
 
for starters, make a trailer and write an executive summary -- that is what most independent investors will find interesting.

here's a few places to shop those items...

http://wcsfp.com/index.php/2008/conference_overview/

http://www.jhfestival.org/jhsymposium/index.htm

the jackson hole symposium was a great place to meet and speak with acquisitions editors. because the conference is new, it is relatively small and easy to get in direct contact with them. even if you don't sell it there, you'll learn everything that you need to know to make it sell-able. the more acquisitions editors that you can speak with, the better...

most TV broadcaster have pretty strict requirements for the formatting of their programs, and they are typically more interested in series programming than in one-offs. non-narrative is an especially hard sell. here's a link worth a look:

http://producers.discovery.com/
 
First go out and shoot some amazing stuff.

Then, cut a short teaser/presentation piece that speaks to style, tone and scope of the film. Maybe .... 5 minutes long and show it to everyone you know in the biz for advice and feedback.

Prior to editing the whole film, you could approach a KNOWN musician and/or band with a following/fans - ideally from the Southwest - that would be an artistic fit for your film - see if they are interested in creating ORIGINAL music for the film based on seeing your work. You could get lucky.

Sounds like the project is "self-financed" - so go out and shoot some wicked cool stuff.
 
Tom said:
Rudi, thanks. I am making a couple thousand dollars USD a month just off the stock footage at Getty right now!... so there is no way I would "sell" anything for the kind of prices you mentioned for Discovery, etc. Can you explain better what you mean by "buying" stuff for $3-$6K? Those numbers seem like a total JOKE to me. It seems ridiculous. I hope I am misunderstanding you.

I need to make at least $200K USD on this by the time all is said and done. :)
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Tom, that's not unrealistic. Typically though they are more interested in a series rather than a single episode. I would suggest you spend some time on a treatment and try to sell it in advance.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
First go out and shoot some amazing stuff.

.............

Sounds like the project is "self-financed" - so go out and shoot some wicked cool stuff.
Click to expand...

Heh... yep! I've got the "go out and shoot" part covered. I have arranged my finances so I can spend the next 8 months doing nothing but shooting!
 
The "hour" is longer at PBS -- is it 57 minutes and change? -- and you'd probably be dealing with the individual affiliates since, as far as I know, there's no existing umbrella program for what you propose. You typically sell them two screenings. The money isn't good. Nowhere near $200K. And, frankly, it sounds like a hard sell, for PBS. They screen very little non-corporate, non-institutional work. Unless maybe the affiliates out west are more venturesome(?)

Have you looked at ITVS? Don't know what they're doing lately, or if they'd finance this sort of thing, but it might be worth a try, at least once you've got some footage. If they're involved you'd get both money and screenings. Seems unlikely (they go for "social relevance" and "community empowerment") but you never know...

Mark Pederson had some good suggestions about music and, believe it or not, Philip Glass is approachable and has been known to work on low-budget productions, if he likes the stuff -- if that's the sound you want.
 
This is going to sound pessimistic, but I really think a Barraka style film with no story, interviews, etc is going to be a very hard sell to any network that has advertisers. PBS more likely, but still tough sell.

In addition to all the ideas mentioned here. I'd look into a PBS station that partners on a lot of productions. KCTS is a good example. Years and years ago they got into HD (the first in the states i believe) and they started to make their "over" series (ie "over Washington" over japan" "over BC"). Basically these are loos documentaries about areas with beautiful HD aerial footage underneath narration. They sell the DVD's like hotcakes at PBS stores around the country.

http://www.channel9store.com/products.asp?dept=19

Best of luck, and congrats on the beautiful footage man!
 
Tom said:
Can you explain better what you mean by "buying" stuff for $3-$6K? Those numbers seem like a total JOKE to me. It seems ridiculous. I hope I am misunderstanding you.
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It is what it sounds like.

For festivals I think you should cut a much shorter version - 5 to 12 minutes because that's what they program for shorts. They have to knock out a bunch of filmmakers to program 40 minutes so they don't.

Ambiance DVDs for hotels, winebars etc? Keep your rights, for sure. In a few years we'll have paper thin hdtv's that will replace paintings and photographs in upscale places and eventually homes. Your content will be perfect for that.
 
the places you hang out late at night are amazing - love the desert and the mountains at night - it makes you feel amazing - don't forget to do some impromptu "interviews" with yourself on location where you can either explain what you are doing in a kind of behind the scenes kind of way - or just talk about whatever comes to mind

this could be a 2 - 15 minute companion piece to your film
 
Recently I've been thinking about doing something similar to what you were talking about Tom. I get hit up by people wanting to buy my timelapse on Blu-ray. But I'm waiting until I can get an hours worth of awesome footage. I'm about halfway there between the RED timelapse and the 40D timelapse. Its funny though, seems most of your stuff is of nature and most of my stuff is from the cities. Lately I have been spending time out in the desert getting shots here and there.
 
This is such a timely thread.
My main base of experience is in Music Videos but it looks like I have the opportunity to start on a long haul non narrative documentary ala Godfrey Reggio/Ron Fricke.

These are some great tips, thanks to everyone who's been chiming in. Is there anyone with experience of selling non narrative documentaries in Europe?
 
Tico said:
Wow, Tom... what's your secret?

:help:
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1. I'm not married and don't have a mortgage.

2. I can live in a tent and subsist on tuna sandwiches and Keystone Light for months at a time. :) :wink:
 
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